I bought another 416 Rigby - BY ACCIDENT - Oh well, it turned out to be a great deal after all

Hello All,

As per my many posts in the past, I'm always looking for Brevex rifles. One day last month I saw this auction listing where they had mistakenly listed the rifle as Belgium made UNKNOWN 416 belted cartridge, and later added a correction that it was a BREVEX.

They had an opening bid of $2000. I tagged the rifle with that opening bid because I was gong to watch the auction LIVE on proxibid, and I was prepared to bid much higher. I was intrigued by the UNKNOWN 416 belted cartridge designation thinking there were only 3 possible cartridges that it could be. The 416 Taylor, the 416 Rem Mag, or the 416 Weatherby Mag. I dismissed the Taylor thinking why would someone use a Magnum Brevex action for a short cartridge. Either of the other 2 would be great.

Well, come auction day .... no one bid. It stayed right at that opening bid.



When the rifle arrived today, I looked at the bolt face and it was BIG. I suspected that I had snagged a 416 Weatherby Magnum. I tested with a 416 WBY cartridge - - the bolt wouldn't close. So, .... I did a chamber cast ...... much to my surprise .... NO BELT .......

It turned out to be a straight-up 416 Rigby - my favorite cartridge. That makes number seven 416 Rigby rifles, and number 10 Brevex rifles.

And take a look at what I got ! ... WOW ... WOW ... I can't believe no one else bid on this... it must have been that "UNKNOWN" stigma that frightened away all the bidders. .. and by-the-way .... turns out the rifle is UN-FIRED ...

As far as accidents go, I’d say you did well.

What a steal ! Congratulations.
Nobody bothered to look on the action flat, even with that boogered front action screw ?
Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Beautiful rifle and a smoking deal! Ive had a few 'accidents' using proxibid!

quote:

Originally posted by zebrazapper:
As far as accidents go, I’d say you did well.

Hello zebrazapper,
Thanks for the reply.

Yep!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
What a steal ! Congratulations.
Nobody bothered to look on the action flat, even with that boogered front action screw ?

Hello RIP,
Thanks for the reply.

I already fixed that screw.

The bottom of the action was covered in black soot from the stock in-letting, and there was a lot of gummy release agent from when the barrelled action was fully glass bedded. Only when I took the first pictures did the camera flash show that something was scratched there. I scrubbed the action bottom to clean it, but without the camera flash, it was still hard to see the engraving. These actions are super hard and the eloctro-pencil engraving is very light.

Good for me that the auction house "looker" must have had very bad eye sight. He saw a "Belt" in the chamber, that wasn't there, and didn't see the caliber marking, that was.

I like it. Good job. I'm not a .416 guy, but it sure it a cool looking gun.

That's an awesome 416 very classy .I really like the .416 caliber .I hope you have lots of good luck with that rifle !

Unknown caliber scared everybody else off good buy.

Metal work by Mark Penrod - yeah you got a deal! Wonder who stocked it? Wonder if Penrod would have any details?

Beautiful rifle. The rifle looks like what a 416 Rigby should.

Well done, this rifle caught my eye in the catalog and I watched this one go during the auction. I was thinking whoever bought this, stole it!

Bryan

quote:

Originally posted by Forrest Halley:
I like it. Good job. I'm not a .416 guy, but it sure it a cool looking gun.

Hello Forrest Halley,
Thanks for the reply.

I like it a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
That's an awesome 416 very classy .I really like the .416 caliber .I hope you have lots of good luck with that rifle !

Hello dgr416,
Thanks for the reply.

I plan on shooting it a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Unknown caliber scared everybody else off good buy.

Hello p dog shooter,
Thanks for the reply.

I really think you are correct. With the caliber being unknown, nobody bid.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryndon:
Metal work by Mark Penrod - yeah you got a deal! Wonder who stocked it? Wonder if Penrod would have any details?

Hello Bryndon,
Thanks for the reply.

I talked with Mark Penrod who did the metal work, but he said he didn't know who stocked it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Beautiful rifle. The rifle looks like what a 416 Rigby should.

Hello LHeym500,
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it does have the "look" of a Dangerous Game Rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan W:
Well done, this rifle caught my eye in the catalog and I watched this one go during the auction. I was thinking whoever bought this, stole it!

Bryan

Hello Bryan W,
Thanks for the reply.

There was another near identical rifle in 460 G&A caliber - lot 2005 - 7 guns earlier than mine. It looked like the same maker with the same stock, same action, same safety, and same features. They listed the estimate value for that rifle at $2500 - $3500. It sold for more than what I paid for mine.

You bought that! I was watching that auction like a hawk and actually ended up winning a different bolt action rifle in 416 Remington. I'm a lefty, so that one was out of bounds, but I thought exactly like you. The "unknown belted" case could only be a few things, but you nailed it!

So cool! Congrats!

Another great gun buckstix.

That 378 Winslow is the one that gets me.

Some good stuff here including the 378.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...081015452#2081015452

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
You bought that! I was watching that auction like a hawk and actually ended up winning a different bolt action rifle in 416 Remington. I'm a lefty, so that one was out of bounds, but I thought exactly like you. The "unknown belted" case could only be a few things, but you nailed it!

So cool! Congrats!

Hello Clayman,
Thanks for the reply.

I really didn't need "another" 416 Rigby, but in the end, I'm glad I got it. Fits in nice with the others.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Another great gun buckstix.

That 378 Winslow is the one that gets me.

Some good stuff here including the 378.

I'm a sucker for Brevex rifles. I think they are the cats-meow in Big Game rifles.

How's that 475 A&M shoot compared to the Rigby(s) and the 505? Always an intriguing caliber to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
How's that 475 A&M shoot compared to the Rigby(s) and the 505? Always an intriguing caliber to me.

Hello Clayman,
Thanks for the reply.

Although A&M made a lot of barrels for the 475 A&M cartridge - they only built 2 complete rifles. This was the second one.

This pretty much tells how it is .... published in Cartridges of the World.




AND HERE IS THE COMPLETE STORY ABOUT THE RIFLE THAT I POSTED 3 YEARS AGO.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...061074532#8061074532

OH BOY ! .475 A&M !
I like that floor plate buffalo. Well done. Nothing sissy about that engraving.

Did you ever find the 1972 and 1973 G&A ANNUALs, Buckstix ?
I have them.
Jack Lott mentions the .475 A&M, what he was wanting to beat with his .475 LTD, proposed in the 1972 article,
test fired in the 1973 article.
Jack Lott quoted a load for the .475 A&M:
110.0 grains IMR 3031
500-gr RNSP
2980 fps MV/ 9855 ft-lbs KE

I have a .470 Mbogo with 25" barrel.
115.0 grains RL-15
500-gr RNSP (Barnes Original, BC = 0.352)
2685 fps at 5 yards
Corrected to MV = 2698 fps ~ 2700 fps, not maximum, but all I could stand at the time.

Have you ever gotten anything approaching those wild velocity claims for the .475 A&M with 500-gr bullet ?

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Turns out the legends are true! I've been reading COTW since I was a little squirt and remember vividly that passage about the 475. Seems like you have quite the collectible, being one of only two made! Have you used it much? I'm wondering where you get brass, or do you just neck up 460 Wby.?

Brandon

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
OH BOY ! .475 A&M !
I like that floor plate buffalo. Well done. Nothing sissy about that engraving.

Did you ever find the 1972 and 1973 G&A ANNUALs, Buckstix ?
I have them.
Jack Lott mentions the .475 A&M, what he was wanting to beat with his .475 LTD, proposed in the 1972 article,
test fired in the 1973 article.
Jack Lott quoted a load for the .475 A&M:
110.0 grains IMR 3031
500-gr RNSP
2980 fps MV/ 9855 ft-lbs KE

I have a .470 Mbogo with 25" barrel.
115.0 grains RL-15
500-gr RNSP (Barnes Original, BC = 0.352)
2685 fps at 5 yards
Corrected to MV = 2698 fps ~ 2700 fps, not maximum, but all I could stand at the time.

Have you ever gotten anything approaching those wild velocity claims for the .475 A&M with 500-gr bullet ?

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Hello RIP,
Thanks for the reply.

I have the annual with a picture of the rifle .. but not the other one.

I don't shoot maximum velocities very often with any of my big bores. I'm getting too old and fragile and save myself for the 600NE and 700NE.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
Turns out the legends are true! I've been reading COTW since I was a little squirt and remember vividly that passage about the 475. Seems like you have quite the collectible, being one of only two made! Have you used it much? I'm wondering where you get brass, or do you just neck up 460 Wby.?

Brandon

Hello Clayman,
Thanks for the reply.

I just neck up 460 brass like A&M did originally. I've got lost of that. I think the published story about the 475 A&M is well known in the Big Bore Gun World. The other 475 A&M was sold in 2014 a few months before I bought mine. It was sold by Rachel Wells of Wells Sport Shop in Arizona. (Fred Wells wife) It sent for $15,000 and is pretty plain compared to mine, with a God awful looking muzzle brake too!

Buckstix,

I take it that you do not have the 1972 article.
It is only a 2-page musing by Jack Lott but does give the .475 A&M load,
which is just a repeat of one of the 3 loads that Ackley reported in his Vol. I, page 505.
I have blown a few primers trying loads Ackley reported for other cartridges.




.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

The 475 A&M 500 grain ballistics are bullshit.

A straight neck up of a 460 from 458 to 475 with equal pressure and equally suitable powder would be 50 to 60 f/s faster. OK, the 475 A&M is really an improved 460 necked to 475. So let's be generous (real generous ) and say that adds another 50 f/s.

2650 f/s with the 500 grain bullet is about it with a 460 so the 475 A&M would top out max at 2750 f/s wit 500 grain bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
... 2650 f/s with the 500 grain bullet is about it with a 460 so the 475 A&M would top out max at 2750 f/s wit 500 grain bullet.

Agree !
And Jack Lott fired one shot with the .475 LTD in the 1973 G&A Annual article.
His buddy did too.
They both got owies on their "forefingers" from the dogleg bolt handle of the P-14 rifle.
Jack quit for the day, went back to Gunsmith Pachmayr to correct the bolt handle.

Jack was using 125 grains of IMR 3031 with the 500-grain Barnes RNSP in the .475 LTD.
He said he did not get a velocity reading because the muzzle blast from the braked rifle with 26.5" barrel toppled the chronograph screen and gave an error reading.
He "estimated" the velocity to be about 2900 fps,
far from the 3100 fps he was dreaming of.
I never read anything about the .475 Lott Tanner Dinosaur that happened subsequent to that.

I would consider 2700 fps with the 500-gr bullet to be close to max with the .470 Mbogo of Dave Estergaard, and that is plenty.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

A simple calculation for getting velocities when a neck up or neck down. I have this made in MS Access with drop dowwn lists for bullet diameter, bullet weight and velocity with "starting calibre"

So if a 270 tops out at 3150 with 130 you can get a 30/06 with any bullet weight and assuming same pressure and equally suitable powder.

So manually you would do 308/277 = 1.1119. Thens square that so 1.1119 X 1.1119 = 1.236. Let's call it 1.24

Take half of the .24 = .12

A 30 calibre will give 12% more KE than a 277 on the same case and again assuming equal pressure and equally suitable powders.

In the 475 A&M I just put in Access application 458 as starting calibre.

As a side note there is very close to an 11% increase in bullet diameter as you move through 277, 308, 338, 375, 416, 458 and 510.

Mike,
Using your method I calculate 2725 fps to be .475 A&M maximum velocity with 500-grainer,
operating at same pressure as .460 Wby with 500-grainer.
So I am happy with 2700 fps 500-grainer in the 470 Mbogo.
Do not want to shoot it at .460 Wby pressure, afterall.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I never read anything about the .475 Lott Tanner Dinosaur that happened subsequent to that.

RIP, that article you posted is the first and last thing I've ever read about that cartridge. Thanks for the education!

Hello All,

As the change to my heading states ... I took the newly acquired rifle to the range for a test run, and had an accident.

I was convinced the rifle was un-fired, and a trip to the range has confirmed this. First thing I noticed is that the rear sight blades were not notched. What happened next is a lesson learned, and one I will share to possibly prevent someone from having a similar accident.

I loaded the rifle 4-down & 1 up and pulled the safety to the rear, putting the rifle on SAFE. I pulled the trigger to ensure the safety works, which it did no problem. However, as I brought the gun up, I flipped off the safety .... and THE GUN FIRED without touching the trigger.

The rifle was loaded with Federal Factory ammo which I had previously chronographed - a 400g soft point at 2400 fps - 68 ft/lbs recoil. The unexpected discharge of the off-shoulder rifle recoiled violently and flew out of my hands. The free recoil resulted in my trigger finger slamming into the floor-plate release button - throwing the magazine contents onto the bench and concrete. The floor plate release button cut into my finger at the first knuckle, and the side of the trigger guard cut into my finger ahead of the second knuckle. The back of the trigger guard slammed into my middle finger which was severely sprained.



When all this happened, the gun was not yet against my shoulder and it flew out of my hands. Fortunately I grabbed and caught the rifle by the muzzle about the same time as the recoil pad hit the concrete. The violent recoil slammed the side of the rifle into the cell phone which was in my right hand shirt pocket. The phone was smashed into pieces. The telltale signs of the cell phone impact are now permanently visible in the side of the stock, which was previously unmarked.



I did a little first aid with my hand sanitizer and good old duct tape. This allowed me to test fire a few more rounds, by single loading without touching the safety. Sighting the front bead over the un-notched standing leaf rear sight blade, placed the bullets 10-1/2" high at 25 yards. A little mathematics with the calculator indicated the blade would require a .19" deep notch to be zero sighted point-blank at 50 yards.

When I arrived back home, I investigated the problem. It didn't take long to discover that the safety was not the issue - it was the trigger. The rear-tip of the trigger was rubbing against the inside of the bottom of the trigger guard bow. When the trigger was pulled - it stayed stuck-back inside the trigger guard. It stands to reason that this is what happened at the range. When I put the gun on safe and tested the trigger, it stayed "back" in the trigger guard, as if pre-pulled with the sear disengaged. The only thing holding back the firing pin was the safety. Consequently, flipping the safety off, released the firing pin, and fired the rifle.



This was an easy fix. I removed about 1/32 inch off the rear-tip of the trigger so it is free to move without touching the trigger guard. Even with my 55 years of shooting experience, and hundreds of thousands of rounds fired, my lesson learned from this is: "When checking the safety on a new rifle for the first time, do it at home with an empty gun, not at the range with a loaded gun." The marks on the rifle will remind me of this every time I take it to the range.

Now that is REAL DEDICATION !
Buckstix managed to test fire it after that catastrophe, and has fixed the problem himself !
Way worse than Jack Lott's owie on his index finger, and he quit after one shot of his .475 LTD, retiring to the gunsmith.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
RIP, that article you posted is the first and last thing I've ever read about that cartridge. Thanks for the education!

Here is the 1973 G&A Annual. After this, the .475 LTD seems to have crossed the event horizon of a black hole:









Dig the 1972 Weatherby and Sheridan ad juxtapositions.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

This is a great thread, buckstix, despite your injured finger, and much enhanced by all the pictures and RIP's inclusions.

You really did 'win' that auction, though. Strange things can drop in your lap on the Internet. When the bidding ends on a public holiday, for instance, people should have time on their hands but often are away from the computer and forget to drop in a last-moment bid.

I guess the old girl was just introducing herself!

Very interesting, buckstix, and reinforces a lesson taught thousands of times over - never trust the safety! Glad you escaped with only minor injuries and a good story to tell (and a busted cell phone).

Bizarre. No one would imagine that could happen. It's fundamental QC to check function when building a rifle.

It doesn't look as though the trigger guard has been bent out of its original oval, either.

Good lesson for us all.

Thanks for posting.

I’m glad your okay!