Reading this thread reminded me that I have some 404J Brass and don't reload, so would sell.
I have 157 pieces of brass as follows:

16 Norma nickel once fired
47 Hornady once fired
92 Deprimed Norma Brass (not nickel)
1 Bell Deprimed
1 HDS, not necked down--straight.

$165.00 shipped

GG,

I understand your answer to me. I expect your 404J
will provide you much satisfaction!!!


Have you interest in the double rifle SxS design?
The 450/400 caliber with either length brass is the
404J counterpart for D R Hunters. [pun INTENDED ]

quote:

If the 404 shoots 1.5 MOA I will be quite pleased and that should be more than adequate for the ranges specified, shouldn't it?

Absolutely. You won't have a problem. It will make an excellent DG load and rifle.

That doesn't negate the other side, of course.
If you look at a hartebeest after tracking an hour, and don't know if it is 175 yards or 225 yards, and you have a 5 second window before he runs, you might appreciate a .444BC in a flatter shooting DG rifle.

Happened to my son two years ago. He dropped on his butt and with a two-knee rest drilled a wiley hartebeest DRT that was a little too brave (turned out to be 180-183 yards). The 404 would have worked, but if the trajectory was alot slower, it might have caused 'double thinking' (second guessing) and a missed shot. Confidence, practice, and some wood skills all go into the mix.

416TARZAN above, makes my original point well.
Any 416, whether the beautiful old Rigby or one
of the newer options, at about 2400 FPS MV and at
.280 sec. den., {340 grns, (this S/D is proven
already by Michael458 with CEB bullets)} would
afford the hunter more shooting options.

As I said in my first post, maybe I would wind up
at a 404J using 350 grn CEBs, (or the like) at MV
2350-2400

quote:

Originally posted by D R Hunter:
416TARZAN above, makes my original point well.
Any 416, whether the beautiful old Rigby or one
of the newer options, at about 2400 FPS MV and at
.280 sec. den., {340 grns, (this S/D is proven
already by Michael458 with CEB bullets)} would
afford the hunter more shooting options.

As I said in my first post, maybe I would wind up
at a 404J using 350 grn CEBs, (or the like) at MV
2350-2400

There is certainly some twists and turns in this discussion. Your assertion that any 416 including the Rigby afford the hunter more options because the bullet is up to 2400fps MV seems to ignore all the previous posts pointing out the 404 does the same velocity with the same weight bullet. As to trajectory, Keith Luckhurst did some work with the 404 and showed that the trajectory of the 404 with a 400gr bullet at around 2250fps was for all intents and purposes, the same as the 458Win and 375H&H.

BTW the Norma loads the 450gr Woodleigh for the 404 and 416 Rigby at the same 2150fps MV and I'm sure both cartridges in this loading are very effective.

Yes, there are a few twists.

Actually, our 416 Rigby loads are at 2825fps.

That means that with a 2" high zero at 100 yards they are still slightly over zero at 200yards and -7" at 300 yards. Only -21" at 4 0 0 yards. "Minute of eland," as someone might say.

The roundnose 450 grain Woodleighs are not really 'high BC' bullets, nor are they intended as such. (Even at 2500fps the probable load that I would want to use), the bullet would drop to -13" at 300 yards (with a +2", 100 yard zero), which is a significant difference. At a 2150fps muzzle velocity the drop at 300 yards would be -21". Elmer Keith thought that was good to go, but I'm with Jack O'C on this one.

On the plus side, 2150fps is probably a good velicty for the 450grain bullet. Woodleighs have been reputed to overexpand up close, when they are sent on their way over the recommended velocity.
But a monolithic (TTSX, GSC, CEB) at 2825fps can pretty much do what it wants with a .444BC (TTSX) and guaranteed penetration (CEB, TTSX, GSC).

What would really be fun, though, is to go hunting next week with anything. Sigh.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

If the 404 shoots 1.5 MOA I will be quite pleased and that should be more than adequate for the ranges specified, shouldn't it?

Absolutely. You won't have a problem. It will make an excellent DG load and rifle.

That doesn't negate the other side, of course.
If you look at a hartebeest after tracking an hour, and don't know if it is 175 yards or 225 yards, and you have a 5 second window before he runs, you might appreciate a .444BC in a flatter shooting DG rifle.

Happened to my son two years ago. He dropped on his butt and with a two-knee rest drilled a wiley hartebeest DRT that was a little too brave (turned out to be 180-183 yards). The 404 would have worked, but if the trajectory was alot slower, it might have caused 'double thinking' (second guessing) and a missed shot. Confidence, practice, and some wood skills all go into the mix.

Your point is well taken. If I were to use the 404 as my only rifle, there would be a compromise.

I will be taking my 300 WSM for plains game (for my daughter to use). It is a remarkable long distance shooter with 190 or heavier bullets.

By eagle27:

quote:

There is certainly some twists and turns in this discussion. Your assertion that any 416 including the Rigby afford the hunter more options because the bullet is up to 2400fps MV seems to ignore all the previous posts pointing out the 404 does the same velocity with the same weight bullet. As to trajectory, Keith Luckhurst did some work with the 404 and showed that the trajectory of the 404 with a 400gr bullet at around 2250fps was for all intents and purposes, the same as the 458Win and 375H&H.

BTW the Norma loads the 450gr Woodleigh for the 404 and 416 Rigby at the same 2150fps MV and I'm sure both cartridges in this loading are very effective.

Hi Eagle,

The O.P. stated he's initially going with 2150 MV.
The traditional load of yore, a 400 grain .423" bul-
let at that speed will not have the flatter trajectory
that a CEB or the like, .416" @ 340 grns, @ 2350
FPS MV or faster will have. (my recommendation,
it's .280 sec/den, Michael458's proven S/D on DG
kills) The brass that is used is not pertinent, as long
as the MV is 2350 FPS. The flatter trajectory with
proper penetration at greater distance makes the
choice that I am recommending more capable of
making certain shots. Using the same bullet type
the 404J, at 350 grn 2350 MV or so would essen-
tially have the same trajectory & penetration. The
7/1000" diameter difference means about zero to
killing ability, true also of the 10 grains weight dif-
ference, at what ever distance.

There is a 257gr flat base tipped bullet available from CEB. We all know how these things penetrate and the velocity can be cranked up.