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Howdy, Here's some thoughts I am having about converting a double shotgun to a rifle.. in light of i will PROBABLY build a second one. I want a simson prewar 12ga(thanks pete) to make my final 470, but that might cost a bit just for the action... So, I am thinking of doing one of these four things with my Stoeger coach gun, which I will be a new monoblock for.. it hands winchester 385 at 1950fps slugs (factory) just fine 1: 470 NE and load it to "just" 2000 fps (to stay within the stoeger's proof) 2: 450 NE #2, and regulate it for 405s!!!! (cheap, easy, lots of shooting) (thanks 450ne#2) 3: 450/400 with a .416 bore (thanks Rusty), to have a nostalic round, with cheap high sd bullets (i've got like 500 SP's in my reloading supplies... and about 700 405's for above) 4: make it a 45/70 and run it 1800 with 405s... no dies to buy, no brass, just a reamer... but it's NOT an african round... then again, this aint my final gun. What do you guys think? I don'twanta poll, rather kick the can around on these.. I'll tell you, I am leaning towards just doing the 45/70 for "practice" and to get my taste for a double whetted jeffe | ||
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Jeffe If I didnt own a 45/70 kodiak that is what I would try to build for my first one. Cheap barrels,bullets,brass,factory ammo and not a bad north american hunting round. If the weight is the same as my kodiak I can tell you its a pleasure to shoot. My wife who is very recoil shy shoots mine with 405gr govt loads. One in 45lc would be a neat plinking round should be able to build one on the russian 410 frame. I got my possible start the other day its a jeffery with hammers, double lugs, cross latch. I am wanting to make it 303 british dont know why guess im weird. My doner action  Got to check out the proofs and ect then make up my mind. I am looking to start with something cheap just in case I screw up. Also would like something I can reg to a common factory round. So what I am trying to say in your case I would try the 45/70 should be the cheaper route and still would be an useful weapon. Dean | |||
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you keep talking about this, now I'm going to have to buy the book. If I do buy the book hope I do better with it than I did with the men from mars/women from Veinus book, that book never did sink in. | |||
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If you want to try a 470 in your Stoger to see if it will hold up, then I could send you( as a loner) the barrel insert that I messed up the end on. I can trim it back to 23.5" to clean it up. I could send you a few 500gn cast loads. I don't have a 400gn load worked up yet, but maybe next week after the family reunion I could start on some. Just my thoughts, but I would want a 3rd fastener before running the pressures up. Maybe the 450 no 2 would work better. I sent my check for 2 .475 barrels off to Bauska. Don't know when they'll show up or how long it takes to get the button. You could start with a 45-70, then if you want rechamber later to 450 no 2. ??? | |||
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Pete, shesh.. you saw my post where i dropped a hard cast 500 gr .458 and struck oil, right?... but it bored all the way through ( it hit at about 8fps) and popped out in the black sea the 500/416 is a 40,000psi or so load.. the 450/400 is lighter.. and it's "only" 400 at 2150... rather than 2400... so i wouldn't worry AS MUCH about factory ammo.... beides, it wouldn't be a huge issue if a .411-.414 "factory" round was fired... just about as accurate as a super soaker. Now, perhaps, if i hadn't sold my 470 stuff.. heh I have heard that a gent that converted bss's didn't use no third connector.... my EGO want's a 470.... my wallet says 45/70 (i've got one, a hr single) IFi buy dies/brass, I think the 450/400 or the 450 are great, for the same action. I have shot a BUNCH of the high end 12 ga slugs from win. no problems.. but bolt thrust goes UP with smaller case head/same pressure. i wish i could find a simson cheap Billy, you can borrow my book.. it's not a greatly accurate guide.. but it IS a decent path of here to there. why the stoeger today? it's in my gunsafe (new cost zero) and unprofiled barrels are like 50 bucks... jeffe | |||
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low cost will be my approach. Until I see if I can do it then crank it up. Jeffe where you getting the barrels Dean | |||
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Dean from bauska, if i do them unprofiled... i've worked out a way to monkey copy a barrel profile, close enough anyway. Would be COOL to have a 12 and a double rifle in one case.. even if in the us only jeffe | |||
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Quote: This is a new one on me! From my work with Contenders, bolt thrust goes UP as case head size (actually, the area inside the case at the head) increases.......that's why you can run a contender up to 50,000+ with a 223 but you have to keep the pressure WAY down with the 45-70! If what you said is true, there would be less bolt thrust from a 45-70 size case at 50,000+ than the thrust from a 223 case at the same pressure level.........I don't think so...... | |||
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Nice! The only drawback is that most shotgun barrels are regulated to cross at about 30 yards, if my memory serves me, and that reduces the effective range considerably. Now if there's a way to cant the inserts . . . or if the shotgun barrels are re-regulated . . . I especially like the 30/40 Krag for North America, or at least the lower 48. | |||
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I would use a Browning BSS and have it taken down to soft and then do all the metal work and have it hardened..They seem to last forever.... I built one with the help of Rick Stickley some years ago and it is still being used by the fellow I sold it too...It was a 500 N.E. I also had one in .470 that Rick built and later a 450-416-3" (a 450-400-3" necked up to 416 cal.) I still have the dies for that one, if anybody is interrested in them...It would make a neat conversion on a Ruger no. 1......... | |||
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From ellis brown's book on converting double rifles.. thrust is PI*(r*r)*pressure... (pi *radius squared * pressure) A 12 ga, at 12500psi, with a RADIUS of 0.43675, has a bolt thrust of 7486.96 (round to .96) a 470, AT THE SAME PRESSURE radius of 0.3275 bolt thrust of 4209.80 This is why you could run a contender in 223 at 55k but NOT a 308 at the same pressure... but, funny enough, you COULD use a 307... So, Scott, I'll take the word of a fella that's done it Ray, you got a reamer for that? jeffe | |||
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Jeffe Well, I see that you have edited your post, what you originally posted was: Quote: This is actually backwards.........as proven by the thrust comparison between the 12 gauge and the 470 you posted! Quote: Jeffe Please explain why the 307 will work but the 308 won't? Since the area inside the case at the head is basically the same, and, since the case dimensions are the same (except for the rim), if you run the same pressure, the bolt thrust will be the same, right??? I hope to learn something here! Thanks! | |||
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GH, Let's start from the top... One can load a TC in 223 way up for a 223, right? Yet, you said the 45/70 had to be loaded way down? That's INCORRECT, as all reloading manuals (more or less) give the hottest and highest loads of 45/70 for TC or Mauser bolt action ONLY, right? What happens to a "springy" contender in 45/70 loaded HOT HOT? it pops open and/or stretchs.. right? in a 223? you loose the primer... remember, GH, the 45/70 IS LOADED HOT in a TC... | |||
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GH, first, I didn't edit my post, as the exact quote you mention is still directly there. Back about 10 years ago, I called TC for a 358 win barrel.. not knowing jack didley about the TC. They told me that the 358 would NOT work, due to bolt thrust.. but the 356 AND the 35x444 wuold be just fine and dandy.... I then asked them about the 308... and they said ALL 308 base cases.. but 30-30 and 307 is FINE.... even the 30-30 improved... this is what TC told me, directly.. before i began to even care about why. jeffe | |||
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Quote: No sir, that is not what I said..........at least that is not what I meant  I did not mean that you have to load the 45-70 to trapdoor pressures, I meant that you had to keep the pressure way down in comparrison to the 223! Your original statement: Quote: is simply not true! Look at the quote very carefully! From your own example: Quote: Look at the thrust from the 470! It is less than the thrust from the 12 gauge even though the pressures are the same......why? because the case head is smaller! This directly contradicts your first statement: Quote: You are saying one thing and then proving it wrong with the mathmatics in the very source you are using to defend it??? Still not convinced? Look at the equation you posted: pi x radius squared x pressure = bolt thrust If you increase the radius (larger case head), the increase in bolt thrust is huge! As far as suitable cartridges for the TC goes.......the reason you can't use a 358 winchester, but you can use a 35x444, is because the 35X444 (358 JDJ) runs at a lower pressure than the 356 or 358 and, because it has straighter case walls. By the way, TC WILL NOT chamber the 356 or the 307 in a Contender.......never have, never will! Why? Because they are too much for the contender frame..... | |||
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Quote: I do not mean to be a nit picker, but bolt thrust goes DOWN with smaller case head, or UP with a larger case head. The larger case head of the .585 nyati is what caused the concern about bolt lugs possibly failing on mauser 98 actions in that caliber. | |||
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GH, <DUH! on me> shesh... i shouldn't talk about ting i don't know alot about.. yes, once and for all, i agree that a smaller case head has less bolt thrust, at the same PSI... I got this wrapped all around, arguing with scott.... I MEANT to say and prove (poor job) that a smaller case head can have a higher pressure, at the same bolt thrust... (goes back into the shop) <grin> Can someone send me a dunce cap on this one? jeffe | |||
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Jeffe I figured you knew what you meant......it just got messed up in translation | |||
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5641 posts and one lousy mistake????? Don't be so hard on yourself.... Rick. | |||
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Jeff, As a friend, I just wanted to offer this to as a suggestion for your double rifle project. Idea for double rifle project!   | |||
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George, thanks buddy... i think i can Rick, I bet i've made closer to 1000 than one.. but a man who makes no mistakes learns nothing, right? G' Rusty.. what a pal!! if i cuold talk jana into it, don't you think i'ld have a searcy?  jeffe | |||
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No, I don't have the reamer but you can use a 450-400 3" reamer with a 416 button..That is what Rick did... | |||
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Jeffe, I had the same thought for a "play around double" and tried the EAA 12ga. with 20" barrel and 45/70 inserts by Tanfoglio. The insert fit was marginal so I had a machinist friend finish it off. To regulate, they give you collet shims for the front of the barrels that are retained by a screw cap. I installed some Win. pre-64 mod. 70 sights on the solid ramp. The gun looks funky but goes bang. Regulation was an interesting task. The closest I could get was about 8 inches apart at 50 yds. The hardware cost was about $450 with no labor included. EAA has been advertising a new double on their website. I have been in e-mail contact with them since. Oct. of 2003. No rifles yet available. Last contact, they advised that the rifles are now in the country but held up by our State Dept. due to improper translation. Whatever that may mean. The retail price advertised is $629. Maybe this is like trying to buy gasoline for 49 cents a gallon. Geoff | |||
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Geoff, howdy!! the eea is the mp221, and it's held up forever.. last note said mid 2005... this is due to them receiving both the savage AND remington contracts for shotguns. I am going to actually build a new monoblock and barrel that, which will give me something akin to the actual double rifle regulation... I dunno how close i can get till i get there... but I bet it'll stomp a hog here in texas!! cheers jeffe | |||
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Jeffe, That should be a most interesting project! We'll be watching your posts. Aloha, Geoff | |||
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Here is a Greener that could be converted.  | |||
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Well, maybe. First I have qualms about disrupting a fine old shotgun and secondly, speaking of recoil, that stock has one Hell of a lot of drop. Obviously in conversion there would have to be restocking, as well as the barrel work? | |||
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It is not an original stock, which lowers the value and thus makes it a candidate for conversion. As for drop, Ray says that causes muzzle rise which absorbs recoil.  | |||
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