A gunsmith I know says that having iron sights for backup on a rifle is like towing a horse and buggy behind your Suburban in case of a breakdown.

Have you ever had to rely on irons because of a scope failure?

Never. In over 20 years of out-of-state and out-of-country hunting, I've never had a scope go bad during a hunt (mostly Leupolds, Burris, Zeiss, etc.).
The one time I had an optics 'failure' was due to the mount breaking, not the optics. Despite the fact that my Leupold V-X III 2.5x-8x was being held on my Sako .375 by the front ring only, I still shot 11 animals before I noticed the broken mount.

That said, I always have a spare scope or rifle along on trips, and my DGRs have backup iron sights on them. You hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

George

[This message has been edited by GeorgeS (edited 06-09-2001).]

I think it depends upon your use and the style in which you hunt. I have it both ways on the two different rifles I own.

My 30/06 is made into the lightest mountain rifle I can use. It is under 7 pounds with the scope. Because it is so light I have put on a special aluminum one piece base and 4 aluminum rings. They are very strong and tight. It would be a bugger to get them off. I therfore have no iron sights on this gun. It is my first choice every time for mountian hunting or when long packin trips are the order of the day.

On my 375HH I have open sights and Warne QD rings. This is my primary rifle when working in and hunting in Africa. I have two scopes pre zero'ed and in the case plus an Ashley outdoors Rear peep that mounts in the rear scope base. I spend a lot of time each year in Africa and need a bit of back up. I do not want to have a scope failure and quit hunting. I want to have several options. Open sights are the cheapest insurance you can have to keep a rifle shootable.

My new rifle being built as I write this is a 458 Lott it will have only open sights and no provisions for a scope at all. It will become my work rifle for back up only.

When that one is finished I will have one with only a scope(30/06), one with only open sights(458 Lott), and one with both(375HH) It suits me fine to have the most versatile rifle made have both options. If there is a rifle that shouold have both it is the 375HH.

I don't think it is a fair assessment to judge all rifles equally. What a guy hunts and in what conditions will be the determining factor. jj

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

JJ, TWO rifles!? How do you get by with just two rifles?????

George

your gunsmith should stick to what he knows, gunsmithing (maybe), and leave the hunting to someone else, with a better overall picture of the situation...When I hear such remarks I know I'm dealing with a less than intelligent person or one who is just full of it....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

George, I bought the two oldest most boring all around rifles made. What a bad Idea. I could never justify a new rifle after that! I am nearing the third one now the Lott, but I guess I am a hunter not a gun collector or target shooter. With this old and boring pair the 375HH and the 30/06 I really have everything covered that I hunt. The 458Lott is not for hunting just for work so it's in a class by itself.

I have secretly wished for a 25/06 or a 257 weatherby, and a 338/06 but never really seen where I "NEED" one of them. I think a 25/06 is in my future, someday maybe. I have to burn some powder in this 458Lott first.jj

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The happiest of people don't necessarily have the best of everything, they just make the best of everything they have.

If I only had two rifles, they would get shot out every other year and I would have to keep some extra barrels on hand.

Need? Need? Since when does need have anything to do with it???

Just kidding....my first bolt-action was a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe .300Wby (I still have it and shoot it). I could have stopped there until I got into dangerous game in Africa, but I'm glad I didn't. I'm having too much fun buying and shooting.

BTW, what, no varmint-hunting?
George

500 Grains,
I won't argue the open sights issue too much as I don't find much use for them. However, I used to have a Suburban that broke down now and then in remote places and I sure could have used that horse and buggy!

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Phil- Life Member NRA & SCI

500grains, the answer to your question about scope failier, is "YES". I have told this story before so if any of you guys have already heard it , NEXT post!

I was hunting in the mountains of New Mexico, and useing a back pack had gotten about 10 miles accross canyons from our base camp. I was negoteating a very narrow ledge,with a rock face on the up hill side, and a drop of about 100 feet on the downhill side. It wasn't straight down but was about a 12 Degree slope, of cactus, and rocks. I got over ballanced, with the rifle in my downhill hand, and it was either go over the side, or turn the rifle loose! Considering the path to the bottom, the choice was not a hard one, even though the rifle was a shiney new Mannlicher Shoenauer 1961 MCA, with a redfield 6x scope on board. Drop it, I did, and when it was retrieved the objective lens was looking down at the back sight, and barrel. The rifle had a very good set of factory irons, and a quick twist, and the bent scope was off, and in my pack. one hour later, just before sundown, I killed one of the biggest Muledeer I have ever seen in my, then, 35 years. I had another rifle in camp, of the same chambering, so the ammo was no problem, but not only was it ten miles away, I would likely have never seen the big deer. If I had been useing the other rifle, I would have been out of business, because it did not have irons! Now think about This! When you are 20,000 miles from home, and 500 miles from a town, and you drop your rifle, and the scope is damaged, NO IRONS? now we ain't talking a trip home without a DEER, we are talking about a $20K hunt in the ballance!

My friend your gunsmith is full of buffalo bagels! Iron sights are the cheapest, and most dependable insurance you can buy!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>

I have had scopes and mounts go bad and every year we deal with this..Thats why we have 416 Ruger in camp in Tanzania....

On a charge, I want no part of a scope, none what so ever...To start with up close and personal a scope will put the bullet POI 2 to 4"'s low because it does not allow for the difference in scope and barrel at short range...Try shooting a deer in the neck at 10 to 15 ft. with a scope by putting the cross hairs on his neck...shoot then duck, the rocks will be flying ever direction.....

Most hunters don't allow for this in a charge situation, I don't think I want my mind cluttered with such allowances when I'm about to be et or stomped...

Another thing is you cannot point and shoot with a scope on a gun, it just doesn't work, at least not for me....

For plainsgame a scope is desirable for most but in the real African bush, I still like the irons....in fact I just like irons..peep or V makes no difference.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

You can take my word for the following statement: There is nothing to equal the crushing feeling of utter helplessness and sheer dismay than being in a remote area and finding oneself in possession of a rifle rendered useless by a scope gone bad. No matter how it occurred the result is the same.
Your hunt is over.
Sure, you may have a spare scope but unless it's in your day-pack you're still screwed until you get back to camp and If you do have a spare you'll hope and pray it's still "on" or you'll be shooting up your hunt area trying to re-zero.
Anyone who has hunted extensively in remote areas and has not suffered a scope damage "incident" is very fortunate, indeed.
Canoeing / rafting / backpacking or pack trips into remote areas or flying thousands of miles to some exotic locale, a rifle fitted with functional and tested iron sights simply makes good sense, spare scope or not.
I've seen good scopes fog up for days in certain conditions. I've watched leaning rifles slip off trees or slide along the side of the truck, breaking a seal or lens.
Slung rifles or "packed" rifles are often busted up by slips and falls on ice, mud, wet leaves, river rocks and moss covered boulders ... scopes are crushed. Cold hands, sweaty hands, injured hands all drop rifles and damage scopes every day. Pack horses can go whacky in the woods and smash your rig into trees, heck, I've seen them fail from the cumulative bouncing and rattling in the vehicle racks for god knows how many days, months or years. The point is, many things can happen that can result in damaged optics, no matter how vigilante you may be.
Give proper consideration to having iron sights, at least on your remote area hunting rifles.

You could "probably" go you're entire life and never bust a scope or have any problem during a hunt.

But as for me, the first time I went out without backup iron sights, that I knew were on, I'd dump my gun and have glass running out both ends of my scope.

So I keep my iron sights and bring a back-up gun.

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

Hey 500,

I only ever had one scope that went bad, and that was not while hunting. I no longer hunt, but, when I did, I had two rifles which had scopes on see-through mounts. That way, I could use the scope for long or open area shots, and, if I was in a dense area with less lighting, the iron sights would work quite well. Please don't tell me see-through mounts are not accurate. Both of those rifles would group at less than 1" at a hundred yards and even with me at the trigger. For me, and many other hunters who buy see-through mounts, there is no reason not to have both.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

If you hunt a lot you will have scopes go bad, thats a given!! If you have never had a scope go bad then you don't know what a "lot" of hunting means....or you do most of your hunting on the computer...Hell, the airlines will almost invaribly knock a scope off on half the rifles that arrive in Tanzania....thats why we make all clients sight in on our range prior to popping the first cap at game.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Iron sights: good! Scope: good! Iron sights and scope: double good!!

See-through scope mounts: an abomination!!!

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Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

One is none and two is one. Murphy's law.
Todd

There's always two ways to spot who has hunted a lot, and those that read Field & Stream. A HUNTER backs up his bet! Field & Stream has see-through mounts, and a 12" Bowie knife, that weighs more than his rifle! NO flames please, Just kidding!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>