Hi all, I'm new to this site so I hope this works.

I just bought a Janson (Francotte) double rifle that is chambered in 45-70 ELKO magnum. It shoots a 500 grain bullet at a hair over 1900 FPS. The rifle was made in the eary 1990's and is of fine quality. It looks similar to the Dumoulin I ordered a few years ago.

The case length is like that of a 45-100 (2.6") does anyone out there have any reloading information on this round? I will try to figure out a lower pressure load that will regulate in the rifle, but thought I could get there faster with some help.

Thank you,
Mark

If I remember right, Dr Lauren Kortz of Elko Armes died some years ago and the business was closed down. Perhaps someone from the European forums would be able to help you.

So you bought that handsome rifle. That was one of the nicer pieces displayed in the clubhouse. Congratulations. Also, I was shooter 061.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
Hi all, I'm new to this site so I hope this works.

I just bought a Janson (Francotte) double rifle that is chambered in 45-70 ELKO magnum. It shoots a 500 grain bullet at a hair over 1900 FPS. The rifle was made in the eary 1990's and is of fine quality. It looks similar to the Dumoulin I ordered a few years ago.

The case length is like that of a 45-100 (2.6") does anyone out there have any reloading information on this round? I will try to figure out a lower pressure load that will regulate in the rifle, but thought I could get there faster with some help. Thank you, Mark

I suppose you could use 45/90, 45/100 2.6" or .45/110 loading data (Lyman Handbook!!) as a starting point. I am assuming that, from your statement that the rifle "shoots 500-grain bullets at 1900 FPS" that this is the ballistic performance of the load for which it is regulated?? If so, changing the bullet weight and/or powder charge will of course have some effect on the regulation.

If you want to develop a different load for the rifle, and want it to "regulate" reasonably, you will have to shoot it during load development and adjust the powder charges until it is shooting to your satisfaction. The way you do this is as follows:

Select the bullet you wish to use, then a powder type. In this case, with bullets of 300 grains or more, I believe I would start with RE 7, IMR 3031, IMR 4985 or IMR 4064. Then choose the charge weight that seems likely to give you the MV you want. For example, 55 grains of IMR 3031 will give you a MV of around 1800 FPS with a 400-grain bullet in that cartridge. Now load up six rounds with this load, go to the range, and fire them at the distance at which you want to regulate the gun/load combo. Shoot them, R-L, R-L, R-L, with about three seconds between firing of the two barrels.

Now examine the target. IF the barrels are shooting WIDE, the MV of that load is too low. It is permitting the barrels to move off the center of the line of sight, right barrel to the right, and left barrel to the left, TOO MUCH, before the bullets exit the muzzles. The powder charge, and the MV, must therefore be increased to get the barrels to shoot closer to one another. If, on the other hand, the barrels are CROSSING, the MV is too high, and the charge must be cut.

The problem with doing this load development comes when it requires a large increase in the powder charge to get the needed MV, since double rifles are often relatively delicate critters, and cannot stand much increase in charge weight/breech pressure. The older they are, the more this consideration applies!

If your rifle is regulated for a 500 grain bullet at 1900 FPS, I suspect dropping to a lighter bullet at a comparable velocity will cause a crossfire situation. But the only way to know for sure about any individual double rifle is to shoot it!

I have an old J.P. Sauer 8X60RS double for which I had to make ammo using RWS 7X65R cases, 200-grain Nosler Partition bullets, and RE 22 powder (to keep pressures down). By the experimental load development method described above, I got it to shoot like this at 100 yards:



The same method was used to "regulate" a Pedersoli Kodiak .54 cal. ML @ 100 yards:



Good luck, and keep us informed as to your progress!

Thanks guys,

I do have other double rifles and understand regulation. This is the only double I have that I don't have at least some printed reloading data on.

I would like to stick with the 500 grain load, as I may take this rifle to Africa with me. I received dies, brass and some loaded ammo with the rifle but no loading data.I shot the factory rounds that came with it and it shot to point at 35 yards off hand. It does get your attention as it is an 8 1/2 pound rifle! I don't want excessive pressures with this rifle. I will start with 3031 I suppose unless somebody has an idea where to get published loading data.

And yes, this is the rifle that was up in Sagola.I did a little trading to get the rifle. I wonder why nobody took an interest in it. It is a high quality sidelock rifle that was made by Francotte, under the Janson name. Chopper lump barrels, fine game scene engraving etc.---------.

I hope to hear from some of you.

Thanks

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mark Baker:
Thanks guys,

I do have other double rifles and understand regulation. This is the only double I have that I don't have at least some printed reloading data on.

I would like to stick with the 500 grain load, as I may take this rifle to Africa with me. I received dies, brass and some loaded ammo with the rifle but no loading data.I shot the factory rounds that came with it and it shot to point at 35 yards off hand. It does get your attention as it is an 8 1/2 pound rifle! I don't want excessive pressures with this rifle. I will start with 3031 I suppose unless somebody has an idea where to get published loading data.

And yes, this is the rifle that was up in Sagola.I did a little trading to get the rifle. I wonder why nobody took an interest in it. It is a high quality sidelock rifle that was made by Francotte, under the Janson name. Chopper lump barrels, fine game scene engraving etc.---------.

I hope to hear from some of you.

Thanks

Mark

If you are going to use 500-grain bullets and keep the MV around 1900 FPS, I agree with your choice of IMR 3031. In addition, I would also consider using a hard cast-lead gascheck bullet with a large flat nose. Such a bullet is very effective for deep penetration on heavy game at velocities from 1550 on up to 2000 FPS, is a lot easier on old barrels, and costs less than jacketed bullets!

I believe you'd get from 1600 to 1800 FPS with such a bullet in a .45-2.6" case with a 500 grain bullet at reasonable pressures, if you started with 55 grains of 3031 and used a chronograph to find the right combination.....