I don't want to start this old neverending argument again, it just interests me that the rancor over the 458 seems like it will endure forever.

The 458 was designed to duplicate the ballistics of the 470 (500 gr @ 2150). It wouldn't do that for many years and got a bad reputation. However, with modern powders and components, it will. It has been doing this for several years. Yet it is still poo-pooed by a lot of posters here as worthless for anything above rabbits. I have seen several posts recently which would have you believe that the 470 is related to the second coming of Christ in regards to killing power. My personal opinion is that te 458 (killing power alone) is slightly better since the sectional density is higher.

I know there are a lot of other arguments about the 458 regarding pressure, compressed loads etc, but the fact remains that its killing powere has to be as good or better than the 470. However, common wisdom says that one is a failure, the other a star.

How long does it take a cartridge to redeem itself or can it? The 244 Remington never made it until it came back as the 6mm. The 280 switched to the 7mm Express and was then re-introduced again as the 280 before it received any popularity. Will the 458 ever be "reborn" to silence it's detractors?

I just got off the phone with my gunsmith and he said my .458 should be done in about 2 weeks. I am very excited to get it and am not worried about it not being sufficient if I am ever able to afford a real hunt.

Sadly I don't think it will ever get a majority thumbs up. With the 458 Lott it is going to be shelved and talked about as something of a good initial try or over marketing etc. I reread an article last week though and they were showing Selby loading for HIS .458WM. He uses a compressed load and because of the heat and conditions in Africa unloads and reloads the ammo at the end of each year. If it is good enough that Selby, who hunted for longer than I have been alive with a .416 Rigby, is comfortable with it then I feel safe behind it.

I think that a lot of it has to do with press, people read something by a writer, not knowing that writer's influences, allegiances or overall preferences; and allow it to influence their beliefs. For instance, there are gun writers who think that 7mm is the ideal caliber for all applications, that it is great. There was a writer who made the .270win very popular. It isn't that the cartridges that they promote aren't good, I'm just saying that the cartridges that they sometimes denounce aren't necessarily bad. The .264WM came out and didn't get off the ground before the 7mmRM was born, and the .264 was almost totally forgotten.

Norma introduced the 308 and 358 norma mags to the american public, sent reamers to gunsmiths, and for a while there was some popularity. Winchester didn't take their opportunity to pick up these two chamberings and ended up with what are, in my opinion, inferior offerings (the 300wm, of course I have a .308Norma, so that colors my opinion :-))

Sorry about being so long winded. What I am trying to get at is that a cartridge can be good or great and being looked down on, while another can be fair to midland, just adequate, and get a lot of praise. (hell, lots of people would still rather have a 25-06 over a 257robertsAI). Oh, and then theirs people's opinions. ;-)

Red

The problem with the 458 Win is that it never lived up to it's reputation and there were a well recorded record of failures with it. The very thought of a hunter with an open sighted Ruger Number 1 in .458 Win is still a subject of Jokes in African hunting camps( although not as much as showing up with a 460 WBY). The 458 win was designed as a modern replacement for a 470 NE which would function through a short action and hit 2150 with a 500 gr bullet. The fact is that the 470 NE had and still has a very good record in Africa and a almost cult like following! Very few people ever have seen 2150 out of a 458 Win without a 26 inch barrel on it!. I've seen factory ammo hit more like 1950 fps out of 22 and 23 inch barrels and the thruth is that a great majority of the people who hunt dangerous game in Africa DONT RELOAD and just buy whatever factory ammo is available. Just ask some PH's if you don't believe me. This is not a whopping amount of power and on average a .416 Rigby is a heck of alot more gun in most peoples hands.
With modern powders and the right set up, the 458 win will undoubtably match the 470 NE in paper ballistics, but based on sectional density, the 470NE is still considered more gun and certainly a double in 470NE is still THE Weopon of choice in Buff hunting, much to be preferred over a 458 Win.
Given the current availability of factory 458 Lott's, 470 NE's, .416/.450 Rigby's , etc. the 458 Win will never again be a popular African hunting round.-Rob

I have a 458 myself. It is plenty of gun. What concerns most people ( rightly so,in my opinion) is that pressures can go through the roof in a warm/hot climate when loaded up to 470 factory ballistics. For myself, I prefer a minimum of 2300 fps and 500 gr. bullet. Will less work? Obviously!

Roger K.

If the 458 loaded with 450 grain bullets to 2200 fps it is a different kettle of fish. The sectional density is still good and the velocity is sufficient for good penetration. This would be the best recomendation for 458 shooters.

470 Mbogo

[ 04-19-2003, 10:28: Message edited by: 470 Mbogo ]

I have loaded literally thousands of rounds of .458 Win in recent years, for use in many dozens of different rifles. With the 450 "X" (SD .306) and Super Solids, velocites run from 2,235 to 2,300 fps with today's powders. This performance level exceeds that of .470 NE, while eliminating problems that plagued it in earlier times. The result is an efficient, powerful, yet soft shooting round that can be mastered by many and I wouldn't hesitate to use it on buffalo.

[ 04-16-2003, 03:01: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Since I haven't gotten mine yet I have a question. Have any of you tried the new powders available? Like Hogdon's powders that are supposed to be temperature impervious? What are some pet loads that everybody has been working with? I think I have a 22" tube on mine.

thanks guys.

Red

/

Open up the 458 Win Mag to .475, then you'll really duplicate a 470 NE. A 500 grain .475" would easily reach 2125 to 2150 fps out of a 24" barrel without worries about temperature sensitivity. But I guess some would feel even a 500 grain .475" Swift A-Frame at 2150 fps is not enough for hunting Cape Buffalo.

Art S.,

If you search the forums for "jungle carbine" you should find a couple of threads that I think point the way to your reborn .458 WM.

".450" bore/500 grains/2,150 fps" was the British stopping rifle recipe in the days of Empire, and as you comment it is still a good one. You still, though, have to use a good bullet and put it in the right place.

Your powder needs to be energetic, but not too temperature sensitive. Some of those are available. Especially check the Hornady Heavy Magnum .458 WM load. Hodgdon says their Varget will drive a 500 grain bullet to 2,150 at 48,100 CUP.

jim dodd

Winchester had the long action but they were pushing the "short magnum" theme .264 Plainsman, .338 Alaskan and the .458 African, all on the standard action. With foresight, they could have run with the Watts from the get go and oh how that would have altered today's cartridge scene.

Lots of interesting comments.

The fact is, I currently own 3-1/2 .458's. (I'm completing my own version of the jungle carbine.) My personal opinion is that a 450gr at 2150-2200 is optimal for this cartridge.

I think most of the posts missed the point I was digging at. I know all the arguments about pressure, packed powder, powder space etc. These have largely been eliminated by the powder manufacturers. What I have always found interesting is that so many people will totally trash the .458, even in modern form, and lay praise at the feet of the .470. Someone mentioned that the 458 didn't equal the .470 because of sectional density. The reverse is actually true. The 500gr 458 has a better sectional density than the 500gr 470. At equal velocities, the 458 should be a slightly better "stopper". If that isn't so, then the mythical 416 Rigby has some problems. The truth is that with modern powders, the two rounds are identical at the business end yet most people attribute much more killing power to one over the other. I find that odd.

By the way, Alf, I would have to disagree with the statement that it was not the intent of the 458 to duplicate the 470. This fact was discussed in the press and even in Winchester ads and releases at the time of introduction. This is well before the COTW writeup. The formula was a 500 gr bullet at 5000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy, which exactly duplicates the performance of the 470. It also had a slightly better sectional density. At any given velocity and bullet weight, penetration would be slightly better. I don't know if Winchester did the original development or if they used someone's wildcat, but functionally they were trying to exactly duplicate the performance on a weight/velocity basis of the 470, for which ammo was almost unavailable, as you state.

I don't mind stating for the record that I'm a fan of the 458. All the stuff about the Lott being better and the early failures of ammunition are all true but they do not change the fact that with proper loads the 458 works very well.

I'm very aware that 1 elephant, 1 buffalo, a couple of moose and some caribou don't make me a 458 expert. I can state though that the 458 worked as well for me or maybe better than the 416 and 375 on the same animals.

You know bad mouthing the 458 is kind of like bad mouthing the '06. The 300 Mag works better than '06 but doesn't make the '06 impotent. The '06 works better now with new powders and premium bullets than it did in its infancy with early soft points and ancient powders but its history doesn't make it crap now.

Gentlemen

I have never understood why winchester never made their 458 on a full lenght 375 H&H case. It would have fitted in the action without any problems and there would never had been any needs for a lott etc.

I think it was clumbsy to make on a shortend case.

/ JOHAN

If you can load a 450 X bullet to 2200 plus FPS in the 458 win mag I don't really see a need for more then that. I have the 458 Lott and load to 2300fps which is a bit on the light side for the lott. However I have not yet recovered a single bullet from this combination on any animal I have shot.

I deliberately shot a wounded gemsbok up his exit hole under the tail at near 100 yards running hard straight away from us. I did this thinking I would recover the bullet in the shoulders or under the skin. NOPE! it exited the neck nearly dead center with a 2" exit wound.

My impact velocity would have been likely 2200fps or so and that bullet still went length wise through a tough skinned animal like a gemsbok. I have doen this with many other bigger animals but none were complete length wise perfect centered shots like this one. Most were also much closer.

I leave in a couple weeks and will see what I can recover this season. I'll be there almost two months this year with 19 hunters I should find something to shoot that can stop a bullet besides a marula tree.

With some actual experience with shooting African game with both the 458 Win (1970's) and the 470NE(1990's). My opinion is that the 470 NE is a decisively better stopper than the 458 win.This is based on some actual Buff culling experience, not paper ballistics. The .416 Rigby out penetrates both of them and in the case of most shooters is also capable of a faster second shot recovery on game, better accuracy and capable of reaching out to 200 yrds if needed. I've actually seen that tried with a 458 Win with totally predictable results. If kept to within 50 yrds or so the 458 win is quite effective assuming the shooter could hit his buff properly.!-Rob

About the compairisen of two very close cartridges. The 470Mbogo and 450Rigby. Is there much of a difference between feeding these two?

I figure actions, barrels, stocks and such there would be little or no difference in price. After you have rifle in hand, is there any added cost to the 470 against a 450? Brass would be the same, are bullet prices very different? Any unforeseen costs with the 470Mbogo?

Kristofer

Assuming a rifle weight of 10 pounds and representative charge weights, let�s look at the numbers:

.416 Rigby / 400 Grain bullet @ 2,400 fps / 100 grains of powder gives 5,100 ft lbs. muzzle energy and 60 ft lbs of recoil energy.

.458 Winchester / 450 Grain bullet @ 2,250 fps / 70 grains of powder gives 5,000 ft. lbs. muzzle energy and 52 ft lbs of recoil energy.

.470 N.E. / 500 Grain bullet @ 2,150 fps / 105 grains of powder gives 5,100 ft. lbs. muzzle energy and 68 ft. lbs. of recoil energy.

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

Nick
Some time could you send me the load info you are shooting in that 458win. I am getting a Cz shortly. I would like to try a few loads in her before I decide to make her bigger.
Thanks Dean

Where there is smoke there is fire, and that seems to tell it all on the 458, just too much smoke...I suspect properly loaded it may have too much pressure and the new Federal Enhanced hotties are sticking bolts in Africa according to Man Magnum Magazine..

I have no problem with anyone wanting to shoot Buff with a 458 Win., but I think I will pass as there are so many other rounds that are never questioned....I found out a long time ago that a 404 or 416 seemed to kill better anyway, so I went that route....

the 450 gr. at near 2300 seems to make since but you do lose SD and penitration, but perhaps it is plenty anyway...

As to those claiming 2300 out of a 458 with a 500 gr. bullet, it wont do it. It is hard to get 2300 out of a 458 Lott and the only powder I know that will is IMR-4320 and it will get me 2350 FPS, at least on my chronograph....

The 450 Barnes has an SD of .306, which equals the 300 grain .375 and the fact that it flys 150-200 fps faster gives it better penetration than the 500 from the 2.5" casing.

Tonto - You have email.

Funny how questions you're pondering pop up on this forum sooner or later. I'm no ballistics expert, so I value the opinions of guys like Rob and Ray. I'm mostly interested in the practical applications of the calibers I shoot and whether they'll do the job consistently on the animals I'm hunting. For me in this case, it's not the .458 vs. the .470. It's whether the .458 is really all that bad - if handloaded with modern powders and bullets?

Last weekend I chronographed some loads using 73 grains of IMR 4895. The rifle is an out of the box Brno 602, 24 1/2" barrel. The results are as follows:

500 Grain Hornady RN = 2175 FPS
2188
2164

450 Grain Barnes
Super Solid = 2261 FPS
2250

450 Grain Barnes X = 2219 FPS
2251

Conditions: Bright sun, about 80 degrees.

I had no extraction problems and no signs of excess pressure. It would be interesting to see if the same would be true in the Zambezi Valley in October, as all loads were compressed.

From a paper ballistics standpoint all of these loads fall within the acceptable range for hunting dangerous game. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 450 Gr. Barnes bullets on anything that walks. Having said that, I shoot a Lott loaded with 500 grain Swifts and Woodleighs and will continue to do so. That extra bit of velocity and those long cases have a way of inspiring confidence when you need it.

As for the .470 vs .458, I think there is a confidence factor there as well, particularly for a PH. A rifle that swings like a shotgun, is handy in the bush and affords two quick shots will beat a bolt gun in some circumstances. If loaded properly and with good shot placement, I doubt there's much practical difference on the receiving end.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KBGuns:
[QB]About the compairisen of two very close cartridges. The 470Mbogo and 450Rigby. Is there much of a difference between feeding these two?

I figure actions, barrels, stocks and such there would be little or no difference in price. After you have rifle in hand, is there any added cost to the 470 against a 450? Brass would be the same, are bullet prices very different? Any unforeseen costs with the 470Mbogo?

Kristofer

Hi Kristofer,
With the guns built I think the 470 Mbogo brass might work out cheaper but there is probably a larger variety of .458 bullets than .475. This doesn't mean there is any shortage of .475 bullets by any means. I would think that brass life would be excellent with either cartridge. The 470 Mbogo would do anything the 450 Rigby would do with less pressure and a larger cross sectional area. The sectional density is lower with the .475 - 500 grain bullet but is still plenty at .317.
Take care,
Dave

Federal lists a factory load, 400 grain bullet, Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, at 2380, I believe, out of a 24 inch barrel, in 458 Win Mag.

Isn't that pretty near perfect ballistics for a stopper?

s

I think a 400 grain b ullet is much to short in .458 diameter to get the kind of consistant straight through penetration the heavier 450-500 grain bullets will get. I would not personally waste my time with a bullet that light in a diameter that big.

Just my opinion but I like a much longer bullet. Maybe an X bullet would be close but when you start getting long bullets you start taking up case space too. The Lott is still the best cartridge going in .458 daimeter in my opinion.