Gentleman,
I am in the process of doing research to add another rifle to my battery.
The rifle will be used for back up work on DG as well as being available to clients to use on their DG hunts.
The .416 is in my opinion too close to the .375, which I already own, and was looking at either the .458 Lott or the .450 Rigby.
Recoil is defiantely a factor in the decision, since everyone has different recoil tollerances.
Is there anyone who has experience with these two rifles and an opinion on them. If there is a calibre that you feel might be an option to consider, I would appreciate your input.

Best Regards
Marius Goosen

I might only suggest you consider the Lott first
as ammo might be cheaper and more available in Africa. Also you can shoot 458 Win. for a reduced loading. Not many shooters/hunters will like the recoil of either caliber unless they are experienced big-bore shooters. Although one or 2 shots at DG is no big deal off-hand or off sticks.
Just MHO. If a client has ANY recoil fears, go with the 375 for them and keep the big gun to yourself for back-up.

Good Hunting

Tetonka
DRSS

Thanks for the input. At the moment the .375 does the job. I just need to add something extra to the collection, since a lot of clients decide on not bringing their own rifles or don't have a DG rifle.

The .458 lott will surely be easier and cheaper to feed and it has the ability to use .458 win mag ammo in it. Actually unless you got clients familiar with lott recoil I'd go with a .458 winnie.

The .458 Lott would get my vote due to ammo availability. Used mine in Zim last August for the first time and it did an amazing job on Buff. Plus, for clients that leave ammo for their PH's,that will probably be a more common caliber.

As has been said, the Lott is more practical, in that it's easier to feed, lighter in recoil, yet up to the task of taking thick skinned DG with authority.

IMHO, the .450 Rigby is more of a specialist's or an enthusiast's rifle. More power is a good thing, but more recoil is not, and the .450 probably generates too much recoil for most.

A hot load in the Lott is much the same as a moderate load in the Rigby so the recoil question between the two is pretty much a wash. However I concur that the Rigby is much more the crank's or the specialist's rifle. Some day I hope to get mine back to Africa but if I lived there and was in your shoes, I would never have had it made. For practical purposes the Lott is much preferred.

For a client, I'd go with a regular 458 Win Mag in about a 10lb rifle. Cheap to load, the new 458 loads are adequate for anything, and recoil in that rifle weight will be more tolerable to the users.

+1.
The 458 Win will be more than adequate, far easier to get ammo, and more tolerable to shoot for clients that aren't hard core big bore enthusiasts. Present company excepted, of course!

A Very good reasonably priced gun would be.
Browning safari (long extractor) 458 Win Mag.
Add a better recoil pad and an extra pound (lead or Mercury tube). The gun is very light to begin with [perhaps sub 8 lbs??). Glass the action.
Add a new Leupold VX6 (1X6X24).
I have one of these any many more big bores I spent far more money on. This one shoots and feeds like a champ, swings like a bird gun and you can carry it all day.
No issue shooting Hornady 500 DGS @ 2150 FPS or 450 Swifts at 2270 FPS all day long in +100F.

Thanks gents!

Any other calibres that you might want to throw into the hat that will be wortwhile considering?
What about the .450 NE ?

The ballistics of the .450 NE are perfect, as has been proven over the last century. However, nearly all the rifles built on that caliber are either single shots or double rifles. While the latter is normally considered the ideal for dangerous game hunting the blasted things are unholy expensive. And I for one would not wish to hunt DG with a single shot, even with my PH backing me up.

I have owned both (450 Dakota not Rigby, same basically), in CZ's, as well as a 375 and a 416 Rigby.

I shot my Cape Buffalo in December of 2008 with the 450 Dakota. He never moved 10 feet.

Talk to Myles McCallum at CM Safaris about my rifle, I hunted with him.

Either is a good choice for a charge stopper.

Rich

Hi Rich,
If the decision of the rifle was purely on stopping power, I would look in the .450 Rigby or .470 NE range. I need to find that balance though of knowing that majority of clients who wish to rent the rife, will be comfortable shooting it, so need to try and keep the recoil down as much as possible, without sacrificing too much of the punch.

Marius,

I have just returned from a Big Game Rifle Shoot where I was able to shoot a .458WM, .458 Lott and my .416 Rigby. I don't like recoil and have sold my .416 Rigby.

Obviously weight and stock design come into play however:

If I had to rate the CZ .416 Rigby as a 10,
the BRNO 602 .458 WM would be a 7
the heavier custom .458 Lott an 8.
A .375H&H would be a 4.

There was a 505 Gibbs present and I wasn't going near it.

Although I'm obviously a big 450 Rigby fan, I have to agree with the previous post that the 458 Lott is much more practical as a dual pupose gun for what you want. There's not much of a selection out there for factory ammo when it comes to the 450. However, recoil wise neither is for the uninnitiated. My 416 Rigby is like getting hit by a middleweight the 450 at 2450 fps (500grs) falls into the meet Mike Tyson catagory.

I had a Lott in a Ruger No. 1, and literally had to catch it in recoil until I installed a Kick-Eez and added some lead. I'll admit I was simply overgunned.

I own and have shot game with the 416 rigby 458 win and 458 Lott. The Lott gives substantial recoil but is a real performer. You may honestly witness some injuries from older clients shooting this load. The 416 is a big step up from the 375 in many respects and is enough gun for anything. The 458 recoil is manageable but there are questionable results in its past. The 450 rigby is not the calibre you are looking for due to expense.

I agree with most everything posted above but the bottom line is that the Rigby is just so much cooler than that damn boring old Lott. There is just something about that great big old Rigby case and the bigger case works better if you want to shoot mono metal bullets likes Barnes or North Forks. Not even close. Go for the Rigby!

Having given my polite ,practical answer above, I fully agree with Dave.I could have bought the Lott but it seemed a bit like your high school sweetheart,fine and practical. But the Rigby was the chick in leather with the red lipstick who was different in that special way (you know what mean)

KMG:

I load my 450 Dakota with Reloder 15 and a 450 grain TSX and it shoots at 2400 fps at very modest pressure. Heck of a gun.

Thanks Dave!
Thats the type of info that I am looking for. I'm not sure if it is correct, but this recoil table shows the .470NE to have less recoil than the .458 Lott. Could this be correct? All I know is is that I had a double discharge on a .470 NE and it was no fun....

Recoil Table

I see that there is at least one error in that chart. The 450 NE uses a 480/500 grn bullet. it shows a 465 grn.

Other than a very few thousandths diameter and possibly 10 grains theres not much difference between a 470NE and a 450NE. If you're allowed to reload there get a 458 dia. rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
Thanks gents!

Any other calibres that you might want to throw into the hat that will be wortwhile considering?
What about the .450 NE ?

As a practical rifle I would recommend a 416 Ruger. It is short and handy (40"), with all of the punch of the 416 Rem/416 Rigby (factory). The Hogue stock absorbs some of the recoil and it probably won't crack or scratch like a wood stock. And it is over .40".

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
I see that there is at least one error in that chart. The 450 NE uses a 480/500 grn bullet. it shows a 465 grn.

Other than a very few thousandths diameter and possibly 10 grains theres not much difference between a 470NE and a 450NE. If you're allowed to reload there get a 458 dia. rifle.

Mike,
Reloading is definately not a problem. But I feel like I am moving away from an answer, rather than it getting easier.
Will have to put more time into the research.
You gentleman just need to keep in mind that getting a rifle here is not as simple as over there. Sure, we, as outfitter and Ph's have a lot more power when it comes to acquiring a licence for a firearm, but the fact remains that the process is a rather long one. It takes around 9 months to get the licence, and one needs to put the time into the motivational letter. This is where the Outfitter and PH licence comes into play as they can basically not deny you the tools directly attributed to your income. The fact is that the process is such, that whatever your choice, it needs to be the correct one first time around.

Thanks for the help thus far!

Best Regards
Marius Goosen

KMG Hunting Safaris, the 470NE is supposed to get about 2,150 fps with 500 grain bullets verses 2,300 fps for the Lott and 500 grain slugs so there is a difference. It's my understanding that the old British gun makers discovered that a 480 to 500 grain bullet at 2,150 fps was plenty adequate for all but maybe the most dangerous situations and stll not have intolerable recoil. If you look at the performance specs of all the old NE cartridges it was a 480 to 500 grain bullet at about 2,150. If not for the British ban on .45 caliber weapons due I believe to rebel insurections in the colonies the original 450NE might have been pretty much the only bigbore caliber used in Africa and India. The 458 winnie was designed to mirror the 450NE in performance and work through a standard length action but as we all know it had to be a really compressed load to do that which led to incomplete powder ignition. The 458 winnie with today's 2,040 fps and 500 grainers performance seems to be adequate by most accounts.

Lott, for the following reasons: 1)as previosly stated, you can shoot 458 WM if needed, 2) The brass can be formed from 375H&H, and 3) The cost and availabilty of ammunition is much more practical than the Rigby round.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
Thanks gents!

Any other calibres that you might want to throw into the hat that will be wortwhile considering?
What about the .450 NE ?

As a practical rifle I would recommend a 416 Ruger. It is short and handy (40"), with all of the punch of the 416 Rem/416 Rigby (factory). The Hogue stock absorbs some of the recoil and it probably won't crack or scratch like a wood stock. And it is over .40".

Tanz:

Darn good idea. If clients are going to use it, perhaps the .375 Ruger would be even better.

Marius,

You didn't say what species the rifle would be used for. Assuming elephant as well as buff on the menu, in you place I would probably give the client the 375 as for most that may even have too much recoil and reserve a 458 Win for my self as a back up rifle.

465H&H

A few questions?

Why would anyone go on a African safari for DG and not be prepared? That means getting a rifle adequate for dispatching your quarry and practicing with it for a significant amount of time.
You are not going to notice the recoil or anticipate it when you line up on your target so why be concerned about the recoil?
If some "jellybean" arrives in camp on "vacation" and expect to borrow a gun he has never shot or perhaps never shot a big gun then I would not be too concerned. He will probably not be hunting long after he wears a blister on his heel with the brand new boots he is wearing.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by KMG Hunting Safaris:
Thanks gents!

Any other calibres that you might want to throw into the hat that will be wortwhile considering?
What about the .450 NE ?

As a practical rifle I would recommend a 416 Ruger. It is short and handy (40"), with all of the punch of the 416 Rem/416 Rigby (factory). The Hogue stock absorbs some of the recoil and it probably won't crack or scratch like a wood stock. And it is over .40".

Marius,

I would 2nd Tanz' recommendation of the 416 Ruger Alaskan model. The synthetic Hogue stock will soak up the difference in recoil between the .375 Ruger and the .416 Ruger cartridges.

Summer of 2010 I had the chance to shoot the .375 Ruger and the .416 B&M (ballistic twin of the .416 Ruger) in wooden stocked short barreled rifles...I think both came in about 7.5# with scope unloaded. Both were very accurate at 325yds and though the recoil of the .416 was a llitle more brisk than the .375 it was not onoeous and did not interfer with accurate rapid shooting.

There were 3 of us shooting that day ranging in height from 5'8" to 6'3" and only comment was from myself (the tweener) anf the tall guy - we'd both have liked a longer LOP for both rifles so you might want to add a few slip-on pads (assuming synthetic stock)or velcro leather pads (wood stock) so that you can better fir the rifle to your clients physic. That should make the experience much more enjoyable for you client (correct LOP) as well as their shooting more accurate.

Also, regardless of the rifle/cartridge that you select...be sure that you give it a trip to you gunsmith to assure 100% feed and function before you put it into service. Additionally if it has a wood stock have the smith also do a proper glass bedding job on it to assure years of accurate shooting without stock issues.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Good luck with your final decision.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
A few questions?

Why would anyone go on a African safari for DG and not be prepared? That means getting a rifle adequate for dispatching your quarry and practicing with it for a significant amount of time.
You are not going to notice the recoil or anticipate it when you line up on your target so why be concerned about the recoil?
If some "jellybean" arrives in camp on "vacation" and expect to borrow a gun he has never shot or perhaps never shot a big gun then I would not be too concerned. He will probably not be hunting long after he wears a blister on his heel with the brand new boots he is wearing.

The rifle will be used for all dangerous game. But to answer your question, if you have been to Africa, you will know that rifles don't always arrive with their owners. Therefor I would like to offer a client something that HE will feel is enough gun, but also something that I know he will still feel comfortable to shoot.

quote:

Therefor I would like to offer a client something that HE will feel is enough gun, but also something that I know he will still feel comfortable to shoot.

Which is why the 416Ruger should get serious consideration.
I love a capacity-loaded (6100ftlb.) Rigby and have built a 500AccR, but I would feel properly cared for and appreciated if someone offered me a 416Ruger for shooting a buffalo.

Since you're going to be backing the client up, make life simple for yourself . . . and for the client. As you well know, the .375 H&H will handle anything, anywhere. Only in a charge situation might it not be enough. And since that's where you really earn your tip, the client doesn't need an artillery piece. All these various suggestions have their place though is some cases that place might be in either the imagination or some manufacturer's catalog but out in the bush a .375 is all you need. And it's easy to shoot straight with one, too.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldsarge:
Since you're going to be backing the client up, make life simple for yourself . . . and for the client. As you well know, the .375 H&H will handle anything, anywhere. Only in a charge situation might it not be enough. And since that's where you really earn your tip, the client doesn't need an artillery piece. All these various suggestions have their place though is some cases that place might be in either the imagination or some manufacturer's catalog but out in the bush a .375 is all you need. And it's easy to shoot straight with one, too.

Agreed. Sarge speaks with wisdom.

One might want a four five eight on hand as well, for the disadvantaged cognoscenti, but for most people and purposes, the three seven five would serve admirably.