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What IsThe Bullet Diameter Of Current 404 J
What IsThe Bullet Diameter Of Current 404 J
They are having an endless argument here, and the Internet doesn’t not help!
So far the range from 0.411 to 0.423??
Any help would be much appreciated!
03 July 2020, 20:28
Jgrabow6493Woodleighbullets web site states their 404 Jeffery bullets are .422"; however, I have 350 and 400 gr bullets that measure .423" and are so stated on the boxes. I have one box of 450 gr bullets that measure .422" and is so stated on the box.
Jim
Thank you gentlemen.
What I thought too, and I make mine to 0.4298.
Some information goes down to 0.411 and I think started all arguments.
03 July 2020, 21:49
Alec Torresquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Thank you gentlemen.
What I thought too, and I make mine to 0.4298.
Some information goes down to 0.411 and I think started all arguments.
The .404J was Jeffery's version of the 450/400 adapted to magazine rifles. The 450/400 bullet is .411", the .404, as noted, is .423". Excellent and effective cartridge. In years past many British gunmakers decided for themselves what diameter barrel was best for a given cartridge (no CIP or SAAMI standards). This lead to some difficulties as some ammo fit some guns and not others. Confusing.
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Thank you gentlemen.
What I thought too, and I make mine to 0.4298.
Some information goes down to 0.411 and I think started all arguments.
Saeed,
How does 0.4298" make any sense ?
Is Walter typing for you or what ?
What is the groove diameter and bore diameter in which you use a 0.4298" diameter Walterhog ?
The current CIP homologation for the ".404 Jeffery" was done in 2002, revised from 1984 (They call it the "404 Riml. N.E."):
Projectile diameter: 10.72mm = 0.4220"
But they show a rifling bore diameter of 0.412" and groove diameter of 0.418".
The Woodleigh manual was wrong on the 1909 date of the .404, it was 1905 when it started being sold to the public.
They may be correct on claiming the earliest 404 Jeffery rifles had 0.410" bore and 0.418" groove diameters.
Current CIP is 0.412" bore and 0.418" groove diameters.
The Woodleigh manual did an excellent job in explaining this .404 Jeffery weirdness:
"The chamber throat was designed to size the bullet down as it entered the rifling.
This approach is unusual by modern standards and was soon dropped in favor of
the normal convention where the bullet matches the groove size.
Suffice to say, if you are loading for an old rifle, do check bore and groove diameter.
The loads below are only suitable for barrels that are 0.422-3" diameter."
Thus Woodleigh acknowledges 0.422" to 0.423" rifling groove diameter as the modern approach.
The most common groove diameter for rifles nowadays on this side of the pond is 0.423".
That would make the most desirable modern bullet diameter 0.423".
But you will find modern barrels with groove size up to .425" like CZ used (McGowen).
I will vouch for .423"-diameter North Fork bullets doing wonderfully even in a .425"-groove diameter.
Hornady makes their bullets 0.423" diameter for the .404 Jeffery.
The best approach, IMHO, for the .404 Jeffery is to call the bullet diameter .423" maximum, and get some custom throat work on the rifle.
CIP throat is leade-only, zero parallel-sided free-bore, 0.424" wide at base of leade, leade hemi-angle 1*25'20".
That is basically NO THROAT.
What a mess. But it can be sorted out, as above.
Then you will have a hunting rifle that plays second fiddle only to the .458 Winchester Magnum.
For the .458 Winchester Magnum there is no confusion and only perfection in every way:
.458" minimum groove diameter
.459" maximum bullet diameter
so a .458" bullet in a .459" groove is within specification.
No throating issues. All the same in SAAMI and CIP.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION 
Non Illegitimi CarborundumDouglas barrels for the 404 Jeffery are .423 groove diameter.
quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Douglas barrels for the 404 Jeffery are .423 groove diameter.
That would be the barrel I would pick if I were to build another .404 Jeffery, or .423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus.
I would use jacketed and monometal bullets (copper or brass banded/grooved) of .423" diameter.
I would use cast bullets sized to .425" diameter.
And I would throat it like a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, scaled down from .458" to .423".
I previously had my .404 Jeffery throated like a CIP .375 Weatherby Magnum scaled up from .375" to .425",
but that was before I achieved Nirvana:
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi CarborundumIf we wish to model the .404 Jeffery bullet diameter after the SAAMI tolerances of the .458 Winchester Magnum's perfection:
Maximum +.0010" over minimum groove diameter.
Minimum -.0020" under minimum groove diameter.
For the .458 Winchester Magnum with .458" minimum groove diameter: .4590" - .0030"
For the .404 Rimless Nitro Express aka .404 Jeffery with .422" minimum groove diameter: .4230" - .0030"
Close enough.
That would mean that in my .425"-grooved 404's,
I could use jacketed bullets from .423" minimum to .426" maximum diameter.
I do know that .423" diameter jacketed/momometal bullets work fine in the CZ .404 Jeffery with .425" groove diameter.
Best to go with .423" groove and .423" bullet diameter,
unless Walter is making your barrels for you and then you might need a .4298" bullet diameter.
Know your groove diameter.
Do not take Walter's word for it.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum04 July 2020, 10:09
Michael RobinsonBullets for the .404 Jeffery should be 0.423” in diameter - except that Barnes Banded Solids are always undersized, because of their hard, monolithic construction. And some steel jacketed bullets, such as the Woodleighs, are also undersized, because they are also hard bullets. Generally the Barnes and Woodleigh bullets will come in at 0.422”.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Thank you gentlemen.
What I thought too, and I make mine to 0.4298.
Some information goes down to 0.411 and I think started all arguments.
Saeed,
How does 0.4298" make any sense ?
Is Walter typing for you or what ?
What is the groove diameter and bore diameter in which you use a 0.4298" diameter Walterhog ?
The current CIP homologation for the ".404 Jeffery" was done in 2002, revised from 1984 (They call it the "404 Riml. N.E."):
Projectile diameter: 10.72mm = 0.4220"
But they show a rifling bore diameter of 0.412" and groove diameter of 0.418".
The Woodleigh manual was wrong on the 1909 date of the .404, it was 1905 when it started being sold to the public.
They may be correct on claiming the earliest 404 Jeffery rifles had 0.410" bore and 0.418" groove diameters.
Current CIP is 0.412" bore and 0.418" groove diameters.
The Woodleigh manual did an excellent job in explaining this .404 Jeffery weirdness:
"The chamber throat was designed to size the bullet down as it entered the rifling.
This approach is unusual by modern standards and was soon dropped in favor of
the normal convention where the bullet matches the groove size.
Suffice to say, if you are loading for an old rifle, do check bore and groove diameter.
The loads below are only suitable for barrels that are 0.422-3" diameter."
Thus Woodleigh acknowledges 0.422" to 0.423" rifling groove diameter as the modern approach.
The most common groove diameter for rifles nowadays on this side of the pond is 0.423".
That would make the most desirable modern bullet diameter 0.423".
But you will find modern barrels with groove size up to .425" like CZ used (McGowen).
I will vouch for .423"-diameter North Fork bullets doing wonderfully even in a .425"-groove diameter.
Hornady makes their bullets 0.423" diameter for the .404 Jeffery.
The best approach, IMHO, for the .404 Jeffery is to call the bullet diameter .423" maximum, and get some custom throat work on the rifle.
CIP throat is leade-only, zero parallel-sided free-bore, 0.424" wide at base of leade, leade hemi-angle 1*25'20".
That is basically NO THROAT.
What a mess. But it can be sorted out, as above.
Then you will have a hunting rifle that plays second fiddle only to the .458 Winchester Magnum.
For the .458 Winchester Magnum there is no confusion and only perfection in every way:
.458" minimum groove diameter
.459" maximum bullet diameter
so a .458" bullet in a .459" groove is within specification.
No throating issues. All the same in SAAMI and CIP.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum
I have one 404 rifle we built, it has a new barrel and has a groove diameter of 0.423.
I make my bullets slightly smaller for all calibers.
Why?
I have no idea, just did, and got exceptionally good results in accuracy.
Roy says he cannot believe how accurate they are.
Our bullets are made one at a time, each is measured and weighed.
We get our copper from building supply companies. The copper is made in India, and accordion to my Brinnel tester this copper is 99.99%.
Problem is we get it in bars of 4 meters, not all are necessary from the same lot, and I have no idea what sort of quality control they have either.
We cut them into 60cm lengths to fit our lathe.
What this means is that I use a bar to make a bullet, for instance a 0.375 300 grains.
I adjust the design to give me a bullet that is exactly 0.375, and weighs 300 grains.
Next bar I use might give me a 0.375 caliber bullet, but weighs 304 grains.
I don't bother with adjusting the lathe, but segregate the bullets into weights late on.
I generally keep them weighing the same in each box, or within 0.1-0.2 of a grain.
The 0.375 bullets I use in my rifle are made to 0.3748"
I make our 0.338 bullets to 0.3378 diameter.
I cannot make them fast enough, as everyone who has a 338 Lapua Magnum - quite a few here - wants them.
I have several 30 caliber air rifles, and when I get some spare time I will try making pellets for them in both copper and brass.
04 July 2020, 11:44
jlabreck7316quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I have one 404 rifle we built, it has a new barrel and has a groove diameter of 0.423.
I make my bullets slightly smaller for all calibers.
Why?
I have no idea, just did, and got exceptionally good results in accuracy.
Roy says he cannot believe how accurate they are.
Our bullets are made one at a time, each is measured and weighed.
So how does one acquire some of these exceptional bullets?
quote:
Originally posted by jlabreck7316:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I have one 404 rifle we built, it has a new barrel and has a groove diameter of 0.423.
I make my bullets slightly smaller for all calibers.
Why?
I have no idea, just did, and got exceptionally good results in accuracy.
Roy says he cannot believe how accurate they are.
Our bullets are made one at a time, each is measured and weighed.
So how does one acquire some of these exceptional bullets?
Get yourself a CNC lathe, and make your own
We don't sell any.
Everything we make is for our own use.
OK correction to Saeed:
I reckon he makes .4228" bullet diameter for .423" groove diameter.
Since I cannot afford my own CNC bullet lathe, and I want .458"/ 400-grain bullets that shoot about 0.5 MOA for 3 shots at whatever velocity
up to 2627 fps MV (so far)
in the .458 WIN+P,
I am developing the TSimprovedX bullet, aka "T6", sort of a "factory second" with minor cosmetic blemishes only.
It is made from Barnes TSX .458"/ 500-grainers using a mini chop saw, drill press, bastard file, and hand-chamfering/drilling tools.
My precision is 1.400" +/- .001" and 400.0 grains +/- 0.1 grain.
I will match this precision against Saeed's anytime.
Barnes seems to have a more uniform supply of copper wire than Saeed's Indian lightning rods.
His copper weight spread is similar to my cast lead bullets, which I also segregate into sub-batch lots by weight.
L to R above:
1. .458"/ 400-gr T6
2. .458"/ 400-gr Woodleigh PP SN
3. .461"/ 407-gr 92-5-2-1 Accurate Molds 46-410-M
4. .461"/ 411-gr Linotype Accurate Molds 46-425-PG
86.0 grains H4895 (compressed) makes the Woodleigh PP SN .458/ 400-grainer (#2 above) go 2603 fps MV, with an extreme velocity spread of only 3 fps for 3 shots.
87.0 grains H4895: 2627 fps with an extreme spread of 3 fps for 3 shots, 0.54 MOA, COL 3.425", pressure < 62,500 psi in the .458 WIN+P.
But the Woodleigh is no good for impact velocity over 2500 fps.
Thus the need for the 400-gr T6 with no limit on the top end.
COLs with that 400-gr T6 (#1 above) might be: 3.300", 3.420", 3.540", and 3.660",
firmly crimped on a compressed charge of H4895.
+2600 fps might require the longest COL,
longer than a .458 Lott.
But maybe not.
I will be rooting for the 3.540" COL.
That is a COL that can be single-loaded, chambered, and ejected even if unfired,
from every factory-standard-length-actioned .458 Winchester Magnum I have,
yet it would work through magazine loading of a mere 3.6"-length magazine.
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum05 July 2020, 00:09
Michael RobinsonSaeed, I’d like to see that lathe in action. Have you ever posted any videos?
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
05 July 2020, 01:35
AtkinsonI think most of the 404 J are .423..Ive owned a number of 404 Jefferys and only one measured .422, the rest went .423..
The confusion comes from the "400 Jefferys" that is as I recall the 450-400 and it runs mostly around .411 to .418...
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Saeed, I’d like to see that lathe in action. Have you ever posted any videos?
Yes, on the bullet making forum.
Photos Video05 July 2020, 04:40
eagle27quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Bullets for the .404 Jeffery should be 0.423” in diameter - except that Barnes Banded Solids are always undersized, because of their hard, monolithic construction. And some steel jacketed bullets, such as the Woodleighs, are also undersized, because they are also hard bullets. Generally the Barnes and Woodleigh bullets will come in at 0.422”.
The 2007 Woodleigh catalogue lists bullets for the 404 Jeffery and 10.75x68 Mauser with a diameter of 0.423".
I do not have a copy of the 2008 catalogue but the 2009 catalogue lists all bullets for the 404J, including the new 450gr bullets, as having a diameter of 0.422" while the 10.75x68 retains a 0.423" diameter.
The 0.422" and 0.423" bullet diameters have been retained to date for the respective cartridges since the change made in 2008/9. The 2009 catalogue does list some new bullets introduced by Woodleigh for 2009 but the 404J 450gr is not on this list so I assume it was introduced in 2008 at the same time it seems that the diameter was reduced to 0.422" for all 404 bullets. I have no idea of the reasoning behind this move, it was probably given in the 2008 catalogue.
I have a full set of the Woodleigh catalogues bar 2004 and 2008. If anyone does happen to have either of these I would appreciate obtaining copies if possible. Woodleigh have provided me with a couple of other years I did not have but not for the missing years.
RWS only ever made bullets of 0.423" diameter for all the 10.75 cartridges albeit like Kynoch bullets they had thin walls to accommodate the various diameter barrels that were encountered, not only for the 404 but for many of the English nitro express rifles. I have heard first hand from an owner that his old 404 had a diameter across the grooves of 0.418". He was reluctant to shoot jacketed bullets and even my 0.424" sized cast bullets in his rifle.
05 July 2020, 05:32
Michael RobinsonThanks for the links, Saeed.
That machine is truly amazing.
Mike
Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer.
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Thanks for the links, Saeed.
That machine is truly amazing.
Yes, this particular lathe is great.
But, we had to go through several, smaller, basically useless for our purpose ones to get here.
I think I was also lucky to hit on a bullet design that worked so well, we just adapt to other calibers without any major changes.
This particular lathe is operated by FANUC machine software, which apparently com,es in several flavors.
We have the top version, which makes designing a bullet very simple indeed, right on the lathe itself.
No need to use CAD software to start with.
We only had this in operation a little while, and yesterday I see we have passed our 10,000 bullet!
First time I saw that video, I thought "Wow ! This is some sort of magic machine ! That drill bit is making a hollow point without even spinning !"
Then I realized the bullet stock was spinning.
Eagle27,
All I have is the 2014 WOODLEIGH BULLETS LOADING MANUAL:
.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION Non Illegitimi Carborundum06 July 2020, 01:14
jlabreck7316quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Get yourself a CNC lathe, and make your own
We don't sell any.
Everything we make is for our own use.
I had a feeling you were going to say that. Had to try, though.
Who makes rifles with 0.430 calibers??
06 July 2020, 05:29
Alec Torresquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Who makes rifles with 0.430 calibers??
The .44 Remington Magnum is .430" and so is the .444 Marlin. Woodleigh has data for both in their loading manual. The .44 RM is a pistol/rifle cartridge and the .444 Marlin a lever Action rifle cartridge. Boar hunters in the U.S. like the .444.
quote:
Originally posted by Alec Torres:
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Who makes rifles with 0.430 calibers??
The .44 Remington Magnum is .430" and so is the .444 Marlin. Woodleigh has data for both in their loading manual. The .44 RM is a pistol/rifle cartridge and the .444 Marlin a lever Action rifle cartridge. Boar hunters in the U.S. like the .444.
Thank you.
Never gave a pistol a thought of bullets from this manufacturer!
Whoever said my head is full of lead pellets instead of brains must be right!
07 July 2020, 21:03
AtkinsonThat's all well and good and correct, however the .418 and others are for the 450-400, the .423 are for the 404 Jefferys, and Ive measured a lot of 404 barrels with lead slugs and they all but one went .423 except for one that went .422.5 and Im sure that was my mistake, its easy to be off (misread) when you mic a lead slug..The bottom line is there is no question here, a 404 Jefferys is .423.
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
I am going to set up my CNC lathe to make some 400 grain Walterhogs.
I will set it to 0.4285"
All done.
400 grain HP
380 grain solid
350 grain HP
Those are fantastically beauteous bullets, Saeed,
but are you serious about the bullet diameter quoted below ?
quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I am going to set up my CNC lathe to make some 400 grain Walterhogs.
I will set it to 0.4285"
Going back to the antique technique of using the throat to swage the bullet down to groove diameter ?
Modernized to fitting a .4285" bullet into a .423" groove diameter ?
Reminds me of THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES.
Must be a dare thought up by Walter: Use over-sized bullets in a .404 Jeffery, just like the ancient ones did.
Use .429" bullets in .423"-grooved barrel that is .415" or .416" in bore/land diameter ?
Should make for an interesting tracing from the strain gauge.
10 July 2020, 10:09
AtkinsonHmmmmmm,
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
Atkinson is as confused as I am.
Saeed yanking our chains.
Saeed must be experimenting again.
Might be hard to close the bolt in a .404 Jeffery.
Oh well, time to get out the .444 Marlin.
09 November 2020, 05:04
GrandpasezANYONE NEED a real long ,423" groove barrel , brand new..
got one to sell . Ed
MZEE WA SIKU
15 November 2020, 22:31
gunmakerquote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
I am going to set up my CNC lathe to make some 400 grain Walterhogs.
I will set it to 0.4285"
for what bore size??
.4285"
- .423"
-------------
= .0055"
15 November 2020, 22:57
AtkinsonAT any rate thats close enough for Guvment work!
Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120
rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com