The new "Handloader" mag has some .405 data in it. Sean

I am thinking about getting a Ruger #1 in .405. If I get it together enough to go to Africa to hunt buffalo, would it be enough esp. in a single shot?



I realize that a .416 Rigby would do a better job but I think I will have more fun shooting the .405 for most of what I do, wacking milk jugs, targets and the occasional hog.



I know this has been discussed some before but is the .405 considered marginal? Thanks!



This is assuming that I can't come up with a .404 Jeffery after seeing a couple of them!

fireman
I'm sure the Ruger #1 will handle far and away stouter loads then the Winchester 95. One of the fellows I corresponded with on this site was really pushing the envelope with his Model 95. I'm sure the recoil from his loads would get your attention.
Thinking about it, I think I started that thread, look under my handle in reloading or lever actions.
I've been shooting my 95 at or above factory velocities using a 350 grain GC'd bullet. It's accurate and from the effect on the steel gongs it's powerful.
Jim

A 300gr. at 2400fps or a 400gr. at 1950fps (Hodgdon loads) may be marginal for Cape buffalo. While not bullet-proof, they are tough animals with a lot of vitality.



Use a super-premium solid in order to penetrate to the vitals, and hope for the best.



George

P.S. Having killed two Cape buffalo, I would not hunt them with a single-shot, let alone with one chambered in what I feel is an underpowered cartridge. At $650 or more per day, I don't want my PH to have to shoot at either a fleeing or charging animal; I'd rather be in a position to do it myself.

fireman,

You can get the following out of a Winchester M1895 newly manufactured in Japan (24" barrel).

400 gr Woodleigh to ~ 2070 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi)

370 gr Woodleigh (modified 400 gr) ~ 2240 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi)

350 gr Speer Magtip ( SWAGED DOWN FROM 0.416" )~ 2270 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi)

300 gr Woodleigh to ~ 2520 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi).

I don't feed my rifle a steady diet of these loads (actually I use a 370 gr Woodleigh at 2120 fps load which is ~ 62000 psi), but it will shoot them without incidence. I have found IMR3031 to be the ideal combination of pressure and velocity for all the above bullets weights, the more cautious may desire a switch to IMR4895 for 350 gr and above, but these loads will be VERY COMPRESSED (read bulging case walls) to achieve the posted velocities.

The failure mode is primer flowing by the way, which ain't cool on a rebounding hammer lever gun (read loss of EYE). I don't think I would push a Ruger No1 any harder, since the aforementioned loads are ALL way over the top with regard to SAAMI specifications!

It isn't a 450/400 3", but with high pressure loads it can get real close to being one.

The 405 Winchester is VERY much like the 458 Win mag. It possesses insufficient powder space to achieve the ballistics of it's Nitro Express equivalent.

If you WANT a 450/400 3" and you are using a Ruger No1, then rechamber your rifle and MAKE it a 450/400 3". It is really rather simple!

ASS_CLOWN

I can get 2,050fps out of my custom #1B with either the Woodleigh 400gr soft or solid and shoot them into nice tight groups at 100yds. My PH studied the cartridge, shot the rifle a couple of times and pronounced it fit as a "hunting" rifle for buff but not a "stopping" rifle.

I shoot lighter loads using 265gr WNFP/gc cast bullets at 1,500fps as a plinking and hunting load. A deer/elk/moose load for the 300gr jfp bullets shouldn't be hard. And the 400gr load worked nicely on blue wildebeest, but. . .

We saw a half dozen or so young cape buff on one ranch we hunted. Anything that has that kind of apparent ornery-ness as a youngster can't get much better tempered with age.

IMHO, buy the #1 for fun and to tenderize your shoulder. If you get the funds to go to Africa, buy a gun in a caliber suitable for large unpleasant critters that holds enough cartridges to keep Mr. Murphy at bay.

That's what I'm going to do.

Hey fireman,

I have a Moyer and McCauslin, custom 405 Win. built on a P-14 action. The barrel is 28".

I was at the range last week working up a load for the 360 gr. North Fork bullet. The following is the data I collected.

The COL was 3.312".

One of my gunsmiths, Chad McCauslin suggested I use Reloader 7.

47 gr. of Reloader 7 average 2,165 fps.
48 gr. of Reloader 7 average 2,172 fps.
49 gr. of Reloader 7 average 2,210 fps.
50 gr. of Reloader 7 average 2,227 fps.

I stopped with 50 grs. because I cut my hand on the peep sight. However, none of these loads were crimped and none produced any signs of pressure.

I am going to increase the OL of the cartridge and continue up until I hit pressure signs.

If the increase in velocity per gr. of powder stays the same I believe I will will be loading about 55 grs of powder to reach 2,350 to 2,400 fps. (This is the velocity at which I want to stop.)

Now, my COL with the 360 gr. North Fork is 3.612". I will load my cartridges to about 3.412. That will give me a little freebore and hopefully stop any sharp increases in velocity.

I don't know how long the barrel will be on you Ruger or the throat length. I don't know how much gunsmithing Ruger will do for you but I would ask.

I am not a gunsmith, so I depend heavily on people who know a lot about guns. Ass_Clown has been particulary helpful.

This is the course of action I've taken because of the knowlegeable advice I've been given. If I were you, before you buy your rifle, find out what you will be buying - then you may have enough info. to ask the right questions about what the rifle may be capable of. Some of the guys on this BB are very knowledgeable and would never tell you to do anything that would hurt you - just be careful.

The Ruger is a stong action and I'm sure that with the right load development you will have a rifle that is more than adequate for African buffalo.

Good Shooting,

Smoker

You can get the following out of a Winchester M1895 newly manufactured in Japan (24" barrel).

Quote:

---

400 gr Woodleigh to ~ 2070 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi)

370 gr Woodleigh (modified 400 gr) ~ 2240 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi)

350 gr Speer Magtip ( SWAGED DOWN FROM 0.416" )~ 2270 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi)

300 gr Woodleigh to ~ 2520 fps (pressure ~ 64,000 psi).

---

The 1895 Winchester is not going to last long with you pushing 64,000 lb loads through it. Here, the Ruger No1 chambered for 405 Win, however, is a fine oppertunity to make a very nice wildcat! Take the 405 No1, and run the 375H&H FLANGED reamer throated to accept the bullets for the 405 Win. Now you have a rifle theat is worth something! Fine for Buff, and cats, and would shoot flat enough to use for a one rifle safari!

MacD37,



It will handle several thousand rounds of 270 Win @ 62,000 psi with out any problems!



I am confident it will also hold up well to my 61,500 psi loads (I don't shoot those hot ones aka 64,000 psi). Heck I have about 350 rounds through that rifle and NONE of these loads has been under 57000 psi. The bluing isn't even worn off the lug or rails yet.



Like I said before, I would not run the 405 any hotter than I have in my M1895 Winnie, there is NO need to. If you want more power, rechamber to 450/400 3" and be done with it.



Besides if you think my loads are hot, wait till Smoker* get up to 55 gr of Reloder 7 behind that 360 gr Northfork!! His 50gr load is right with my 64,000 psi loads. Rimmed cases don't show pressure like the rimless ones do, it takes A LOT more pressure to expand those primer pockets, and around 70,000 psi to begin to flow the case head (which means you will begin to see sizing die force going way up as your die tries to squeeze the case head back down, it will be unlikely you will notice any extraction issues though).



Smoker*,



Go slow with that Reloder 7 man, the pressure comes on FAST with that powder, REAL FAST! By the way, is your Pattern 14 been converted to cock on opening, or is it still cock on closing? Cock on closing significantly increases extraction power with the Mauser derivatives (masks high pressure extraction problems somewhat). Wear safety glasses with those high charge weights too, as a ruptured primer will most likely be your failure mode, and the P14 doesn't have the bestest gas management set-up (it ain't no Mauser).



ASS_CLOWN

Hey Ass_Clown,

I have been very observant of the cartridge cases. After the last time at the range I took the cases to my gunsmiths and they both agreed that I have a little way to go before I start getting into trouble.

I have been going up 1 grain at a time and when I start seeing pressure signs I will either continue increasing at one tenth grain or switch to a slower burning powder. I have been thinking seriously about H322. I can load the slugs out a little father and make up any increase in volume necessary for the extra powder. H322 is is estimated to be a tiny bit slower than Reloader 7 and according to the benchrest guys, it is a very consistent powder.

I believe my P-14 cocks on opening - but I'm not sure. I never considered it important therefore, I've haven't asked. So, how can I tell?

Thanks for the heads up.

Smoker

If it cocks on closing you will have to push "hard" the last inch or so of bolt travel when closing the bolt. The reason is you are compressing the firing pin spring. This same spring force helps to push the bolt open during the extraction process.

405 Winchester brass will not show any plastic (permanent deformation) until you get to ~ 85,000 psi chamber pressure.

For example:

400 gr Woodleigh
50 gr of Rel 7
Muzzle velocity - 2187 fps (24" barrel ~ 2285 fps for 28" barrel)
Chamber pressure - 72,800 psi!!!!

Only pressure sign was a ruptured primer! The case was otherwise PERFECT!

Again, be VERY careful! Rimmed cartridges have VERY STRONG case heads, as such rimmed cases DO NOT show traditional pressure signs until pressures are VERY VERY HIGH.

I have modeled up your 50 grains of Rel 7 load (360 gr NF) and got a chamber pressure of ~ 67,500 psi.

ASS_CLOWN

MacD37,

The correct quote is:

Quote:

---

Chamber pressure - 72,800 psi!!!!

Only pressure sign was a ruptured primer! The case was otherwise PERFECT!

---

I have NEVER loaded up a 405 Winchester higher than 72,800 psi! The reason is as described in the above quote, primer rupture!

The M1895 has a rebounding hammer, which means the primer is left unsupported at the firing pin hole. With these OVER THE TOP EXTREMELY HIGH PRESSURE LOADS, the primer plastically flows into the firing pin hole and ultimately shears out. The results are NOT GOOD for one's eye or rifle.

The P14, doesn't possess a rebounding hammer, so I cannot comment on exactly what it will take to fail the case pressurewise. If the primer holds it will take ~ 85,000 psi of chamber pressure to flow the case head and make it difficult to extract. Based upon these facts I have cautioned Smoker* to be extra careful in his quest for speed. Hopefully his P14 isn't one of the "brittle" ones!

ASS_CLOWN

Ass_Clown,

I appreciate the model you created for my .405. Thanks!!!

Did that model take into consideration .3 inch free bore? That load was 3.312" and the max. bullet length for a 360 gr. North Fork is 3.612. Will freebore make a difference, pressure wise?

The bolt is hard to close the last inch or so...that's why, when I was at the range, I had to quit. I tore my hand up on the edge of the peep sight while closing the bolt.

Thanks again Ass_Clown.

MacD37,

Mine is not a brittle action - Thank heavens!

Good Shooting Guys,

Smoker