I know most of you with .577 experience are shooting nitros, but I keep re-reading Samuel Baker and his praise for the .577 BPE with 6 drams (163.8 grains) of Curtis and Harvey Diamond Grain No. 6 and a 648-grain hardened bullet. I could never afford a double, but might be tempted to try to come up with a single in this caliber. Anyone who wants to post any and all .577 lore, whether involving a nitro or a BPE, please do!

Going from memory, here are the relative ballistics:



577 Snider: ?



577 BPE: 650 grains at 1850 fps (penetration iffy for elephant, but good stuff for lions and the like)



577 Nitro Express: 750 grains at 2050 fps (a true elephant caliber)



585 Nyati: 750 grains at up to 2400 fps



577 Tyrannosaur: 750 grains at up to 2650 fps







.577 double with extra 10 gauge barrels for $9K on gunsamerica.com







.577 Alex Henry for $8500







H&H .577 for $130K at drake.net

Century Arms has a neat old single shot restoration candidate listed here.















When I emailed them about it a while back they seemed to think it could be imported fairly easily.

1850 with a 650 gr bullet is very questionable in my opinion. In fact, I find that most of the alleged velocities of late 19th century loads are way too optimistic. I've never heard of anyone that has managed to achieve them either, and I know of several that have tried (though I have NOT).

Many have suggested that older black powders like the fabled Curtis and Harvey #6 was much faster than current powders, but a few folks that have had the chance to do the comparisons with precious stores of the old powder vs. some of the best Swiss and Goex powders have found the more recent powders, esp Swiss bp, to be very similar to C&H#6.

Charles that is one beautiful rifle. And the price looks like a steal to me. 1850 fps with a 650 gr bullet in that rifle would be well beyond interesting.

Brent

Charles_Helm,

Quote:

---

I'd love to see the reaction when you use it to take that big hog

---

The effect/reaction would be VERY similar to that achieved by a 20 gauge slug.

ASS_CLOWN

Charles_Helm,

Quote:

---

No, the guys I hunt with would say "What is that funny-looking thing and why did you want to put that big a hole in that pig when a .22-250 in the head works just as well."

It doesn't pay to be different, but it can be fun.

---

Now I can relate to that! I wasn't trying to be a smart ass, by the way. I thought I was just answering your question (at least what I thought was your question).

ASS_CLOWN

Charles after you get done practicing on that hog. You can always go hunt something much more substantial. I'd not hesitate to hunt anything with that rifle if the twist rate is fast enough. Beautiful rifle indeed. It reminds me of a .577 bpe Rigby double I got to handle up in Duluth a while back. Wonderful thing it was too. Luckily, I didn't have the pocket change to drag it home.

BTW, do you have any idea what the twist rate is on a .577 bp? I'd love to know so I could calculate some bullet lengths.

Equivalent of a 20 ga slug? Been smokin' again I see....

Brent

Brent,

I did not get any information about the twist rate on this particular rifle. I asked about cartridge length and loads and was told it was 2-3/4" and bullet weights varied from 520 to 610 grains. MacD37 may know some specifics about rate of twist and loads.

If anyone is seriously interested in the Alex Henry rifle I would suggest emailing Century Arms as they were very responsive to me.

Brent,
I am with you... the HOTTEST 12, 16,20 ga slug is a 12 ga 385gr at 2000, up from 1950, and the 20 ga is a 260 gr at 1900.

with woodleigh selling the 650 gr .584 for the 577 bpe, and i believe that was run from 1750 to 1850... well, we'll split the difference and call it 1800 fps with a 650...

thats about 4685ft/lbs of energy

20 ga Slug?
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/shotdetail.aspx?symbol=SSP20&use=7

that's what, 2100 ft/lbs of energy? more like a light load 308 than a 577 BPE.

infact, my 58 caliber double rifle, with 615 at 1350ish has more "powder" (2350ish) than a 20 ga slug.. and is 500 fps SLOWER than a 577 bpe.


in fact, i think the 577 bpe would be an incredible shotgun to double rifle... if kept at BPE pressures

jeffe

jeffe-
the Woodleigh loads must be for smokeless powder. I don't use the stuff personally though I hear that some folks like it

An honest 1850 fps with a 650 gr bullet using bp is something I'll wager against, though I've never tried for it. I don't know how much powder you can get in a .577 case, but I don't think you could get enough to burn in that barrel to make that velocity. I'm not sure I'd live to tell about it if I succeeded anyway.

There are a few people that browse this site that have extensive experience with doubles in the bp loadings and have tried hard to make them regulate at prescribed velocities using bp. So far as I know, none have succeeded w/o heavy doses of smokeless in duplex loads.

Brent

Brent,
with 777, (yes, not really BP) i can get 1350ish with 115gr (this is NOT load data, do NOT use) with a 615 maxi in my kodiak 58 caliber...

the 577 NE (same as bpe) is HUGE... i know that it will hold 135gr of X powder, and REQUIRES a 1/2 spacer, and that break 2100fps with a 750.

I would extrapolate that the 577 bpe can hold a HUGE amoutn of powder, then again, I too doubt 1850 FPS.

the 650gr woodliegh is specifically designed for the BPE
http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/Bullets.html#Anchor-11888
though lead would work just fine.

I'll run a BP simulation on QL when i get home.

I would honestly be tickled with 1700

jeffe

Samuel Baker suggests his favored .577 load of 6 drams of BP and a 650 grain bullet gave about 1,650 fps. At another point, he estimates this load giving 3,500 foot-pounds of energy at 50 yards (p. 19 of "Wild Beasts and Their Ways").
Truesdell, on p. 59 of "The Rifle: Its Development for Big-game Hunting," shows the .577 BPE load as a 591-grain bullet with 164 grains (6 drams) of BP giving 1,663 fps and an ME of 3,625 fpe. On p. 50, Truesdell shows a BP 12 bore Paradox slug load giving 1,150 fps with a 750-grain slug for an ME of 2,400 fpe.

Bill/Oregon,

Your second quoted bit of load data for the 577 BPE seems in-line with reality to me.

The 577 BPEs that I have used were regulated for ~ 570 gr bullets and 6 drams of BP. Using 650 grain bullets just drops the MV (around 100 fps), that is all and in the case of MANY doubles looses the regulation.

Here is what I KNOW, not what jeffeosso thinks:

6 drams (aka 165 grains) of a fast BP powder and 570 jacketed soft point - muzzle velocity ~ 1650 to 1700 fps

6 drams (aka 165 grains) of a medium BP powder and 570 jacketed soft point - muzzle velocity ~ 1520 to 1570 fps (doesn't usually regulate well, but depends upon individual rifle).

Of course BARREL LENGTH is crucial here! 28" barrels tend to acquire higher muzzle velocities than 24" barrels, generall speaking of course.

Most of the 577 BPE I have seen shot 570 gr bullet not 650. The 650 grain pills seemed to be used for LIGHT 577 NE loads, NOT BP, but then what do I know I am simply an ASS_CLOWN.

You will also notice I SAID SIMILAR NOT IDENTICAL to a 20 gauge slug. The 577 BP will out penetrate the 20 gauge no doubt about that, but it won't generate significantly greater tissue trauma! It simply doesn't have enough extra arse to! Besides that we were talking hogs NOT buffalo, elephant, etc.

Finally, I though you (jeffeosso) were ignoring me, I guess a troll like you knows not how to ignore!

ASS_CLOWN

AC,
Exactly WHAT fast and medium blackpowders? I know bp pretty well, and I know a good bit about the tradeoffs between barrel length, bullet weight, granulations, and brands of powder. I still don't think you can ge there from here.

Regulation is a nonissue with that Henry. It's single barrel.

And a 20 gauge is by no means a .577 bullet rifle....

Brent

Brent,

Quote:

---

Exactly WHAT fast and medium blackpowders? I know bp pretty well, and I know a good bit about the tradeoffs between barrel length, bullet weight, granulations, and brands of powder. I still don't think you can ge there from here.

---

Would you believe Fg and 1.5Fg . I can and will tell you it was slower than 4Fg.

I am not too aweful keen about spilling out the load data, as many of these antique rifles are not in sound mechanical condition! For instance that Alexander Henry looks as though it sat at the bottom of a pond for a few years and then was used to drive fence posts! It appears to be in ROUGH condition, at least to me. Of course it may all be bad photography, but with a sticker price of $1750 I SERIOUSLY doubt the quality of the pictures.

I know you know BP fairly well, so I figure you can figure it out. The data I posted is with a 570 gr < !--color--> bullet by the way, NOT a 650 grain pill.

I seriously doubt you could get to 1850 fps with either the 570 or the 650 and use BP in a 2.75" or even a 3" case (maybe with the 570 grain pill). Now Nitro for black is a slightly difference story. Since the BP barrels are very thick for the first 1/3 of the barrel or so, you can frequently outperform the BP with an appropriate Nitro powder.

The 577 BP bullets are so damned short and stubby they really don't perform much better than a foster slug! They will out-penetrate the foster, but they will not typically tear things up any better. A 577 BPE typically is good for about 12" to 14" of penetration (jacketed softpoints) in North American game ie elk, bear, etc. The 20 gauge is good for about 10", at least that has been my experience.

ASS_CLOWN