Will,
Was there a muzzle break? Was it an UltraLight? Can you post the video?

That's right. With the right stock and recoil pad, there is actually negative recoil, where the rifle jumps forward.

I saw a kid at the range the other day, that could not reach the trigger with a 458 Lott shouldered, so he was sitting on top of the butt of the stock, wearing one of his diapers for cushioning.

As he leaned over and pulled the trigger, the rifle flew off the front of the bench, leaving the kid in mid-air. The stock must have pulled his diaper loose, as there was shit flying eveywhere.

It remined me of this thread.

allen day already has expanded and has covered the key bases.

I would only add that you must have a proper (not too short) LOP and a wide and long (in the vertical dimension) butt profile (to spread the recoil over a wider area).

WyoJoe,


I'm probably getting in on the tail end of this, but one comment I wanted to make. I shot a 375 for a few years and then decided I also wanted a 416 rigby. A 416 of about anykind will warp ya pretty good. The part that gets me is not the shoulder so much, but after 10-15 rounds it sometimes makes my head hurt. Typicaly goes away in a couple of hrs, not that big a deal but you know ya been there.

I would not get rid of a 375 for no reason, everybody should have one. Get a 416, see how you can shoot it. You can tell what your comfortable with. You maybe able to pick one up for a decent price and if you don't like it you can flip it.

How does the American design differ from the old English designs? If you know of a site where I can read about that, that's fine too, to save you some typing ;-)

I realize some of my questions are "Stock Fit 101" or "Introduction to Gunsmithing 101" for some of you...

Frans

I am wondering about the recoil of the .375 H&H v. the .416 Rem mag. I shoot the .375 with .270 gr loads real comfortable but I am wondering if I need to stay there or move up to the .416. If it even factors in, I shoot a Browning 10 ga. shotgun fairly well. I don't find the recoil from it obnoxious but 25 rounds is enough for one day.

The 416 is more noticeable than the 375, even if your rifle ways a pound more. When I shoot my 375, I'm just shooting a rifle. When I shoot my 416's, it's almost an event.
JCN

Recoil is subjective re fit of said rifle to the indevidual. If you want to just talk foot pounds I think that a 30-06gives about 20 ftlbs, a 375 with standard loads produces about 40 ftlbs, a 416 about 60 ftlbs. This is from memory and don't quote me on that but that seems about right.

I don't feel much difference in the recoil of my .375 H&H and my .416 Remington. Both rifles are M70's, but the .375 is the Stainless Classic at about 8 1/4 #'s and the .416 is the safari Classic at 9#' 6 ozs. If they weighed the same the .416 would kick much harder. The .375 kicks harder than the .416 when I use 325 and 350 grain bullets. So, it just depends on a lot of things as to which will kick harder, but, I think, if you can handle a .375 a .416 wont be too much trouble.

Is Laramie the hotbed of Wyo. liberals?

Anyway, there is a recoil claculator at:

http://www.bp-tec.com/recoil_calculator.htm

but I do not think it gives as an accurate representation of felt recoil in equal weight rifles as muzzle energy:

.375/300 gr. ~ 4,300 ft-lb.
.416/400 gr. ~ 5,100 ft-lb.

A 20% increase in muzzle energy is noticeable, on both ends!

I thought I needed a Lott, and probably still do, but when I had one I found its recoil at 5,800 ft-lb is horrendous, for me. I am a big fan of using enough gun, but there is a limit!

If you are going to make a "career" out of traveling to Africa to hunt DG it might be a good idea to try a .416. But in reality the .375 is good enough, especially for sub-elephant critters.

So after all that, you will probably buy one anyway, but the increase in recoil will be noticeable. Shooting it offhand once you get it sighted-in eases the abuse.

I hope you enjoy your new .416!

Wyojoe

the 375 seems to be the limit of what a fella can pick up and shoot, without training for /with it.

the 416 is past that level...

for example, i've seen guys that could shoot a 375 for about 10 rounds, first time...

but wouldn't/couldnt hit paper off hand at 50 with the 2nd and 3rd from a 416 rem.. and mine was 10# with scope.

but, in all honestly, the 416 is begining to be in the big leagues... and has NOTHING on recoil compared to a 458 lott... a FULLY hot 416 taylor, and all the rest of the 416s, however, do have more recoil than a 458 winmag, same gun weight...


it does seem that a 458 with 400s at 2400 kicks LESS than a 416 rem at the same... and the 458, in my case, is a lighter gun.


in short, and after training with larger guns

375 ... doesn't actually kick
416 ... enough to notice
458 win ... yep, it went off
458 lott... quick recoil, and lots of it
470 mbogo ... feels ALOT like a 10ga single shot with slugs
500 jeffe ... it's a HUGE shove
577 nitro ... do i HAVE to shoot the other barrel?

jeffe

To be perfectly honest, I use my .416 Rem for nearly everything (no squirrel hunting, though), and just got rid of my .375 for lack of use. Both of my rifles (.416 and .375) were identical in weight, stock, etc. The .416 kicks considerably harder than the .375 in my opinion. Even the .375 in a rifle weighing a tick over 8 lbs will beat you up a bit on the bench. As noted elsewhere, the .416 has a fairly sharp kick with a 400 grn bullet travelling about 2400 fps. The key is spending as little time as possible on the bench so as not to develop a flinch!

Whitworth

Several weeks ago I put 50 rounds through my 375H&H without difficulty. I could not do the same with my 416 Rem Mag. The 416 is the starting point for me when I have to start concentrating on the rifle I'm shooting as much as the shooting itself. I can shoot the 416 very well...if I practice.

A 416 shooting a 400 gr bullet at 2400 fps (hot load in a 416 Remington) will kick significantly harder than a 375 H&H shooting 300 gr bullets at 2550 fps.

Momentum tells the tale.

Bullet mass X bullet velocity

Calculate the percentage difference and you will get the idea I think.

ASS_CLOWN

WyoJoe,

The reason most guys don't like the recoil of a .416 is because their rifle has a lousy stock. With the right stock, recoil just magically goes away. If you are ever in SLC, let me know and you can shoot a 470 capstick that kicks like a 30-06. It is a 10.5 pound rifle that launches a 500 grain bullet at 2350 fps. Yet felt recoil is less than a 28 gauge shotgun. Come try it out.

The secret is stock design.

I agree. My .375 is a pussycat, the .404 is comfortable to me and the.450 Rigby takes getting used to, at the range! I think a .450 NE would fit between the last two.

Jeffeosso,



I actually have a very difficult time telling the difference between a 458 Lott (500 gr @ ~ 2250 fps) and a hot rodded 416 Rigby (400 gr @ ~ 2670 fps or 350 gr @ ~ 2800 fps). The really interesting thing is the 416 Rigby is ~ 1.5 pounds heavier than the 458 Lott!



Any explanation for that?



By the way, most guys I know who have acclimated themselves to a 375 H&H describe the recoil of a 500 Jeffery (or similar cartridge) as f__king VIOLENT not a "HUGE shove". The 458 Lott they consider heavy kicking, but FAR less VIOLENT than the 500. I tend to agree with them in that the 500s kick far harder than the 458s, but I wouldn't call it f__king VIOLENT, just VIOLENT. Then again I have been shooting 500s for approximately 20 years (or if the truth bothers you, just tell yourself the ol' ASS_CLOWN owns and shoots NO GUNS )



ASS_CLOWN

I agree completely that stock design is the main ingredient to comfortable shooting, but I think when the topic of recoil is raised, the issue is benching your rifle at the range. When your body has to absorb every bit of energy the round generates, we can safely say that one round kicks harder than the next, but when standing, kneeling (definitely not prone!), with an animal in your sights, I don't know about you guys but not only do I not really feel recoil, but the noise doesn't seem to bother me either. Sighting in a big bore or developing loads is never all that pleasant after some time.

Whitworth

Whitworth,

Quote:

---

I agree completely that stock design is the main ingredient to comfortable shooting, but I think when the topic of recoil is raised, the issue is benching your rifle at the range. When your body has to absorb every bit of energy the round generates, we can safely say that one round kicks harder than the next, but when standing, kneeling (definitely not prone!), with an animal in your sights, I don't know about you guys but not only do I not really feel recoil, but the noise doesn't seem to bother me either. Sighting in a big bore or developing loads is never all that pleasant after some time.

---

I routinely shoot rifles which kick far harder than any 416. I have never had any issues with bench shooting them to develop loads or sight in scope/regulate irons. The only think bench shooting does is rip the holy crap out of my right elbow (right handed shooter) if I don't have something down on the bench to protect it (almost never do I just let it bleed). I agree as well about hunting shots, I cannot recall ever feeling a shot, just remember losing sight pictures.

ASS_CLOWN

scott,
here's an explanation...

you are comparing 416 weatherby level rigby to "416 rigby"... you know, 400 at 2400...

interesting on the "violent" part.. as a factory 458 lott is generally 1.5 POUNDS lighter than my 500 jeffery... i don't have the liberty of having shooting anyone else's 500 jeffery... as I don't KNOW anyone with one in the houston area.

since the 458 is nominally 2300 with a 500, and the 500 jeffe is a 535 at 2400 (2350 from WR loaded ammo) and MINE weighs a pound and a half more, I find the recoil to be acceptable in the 500, and just a whit past in a 458 lott.

as for shooting a 500 for 20 years... that leave the question, what did you do for brass? I've got a turned down 577 nitro somewhere in my collection, that was A way of making 500 jeffe

jeffe

500 Grains has said it all.

I have a Lott from AHR that my teenaged boys love to shoot.

Bad stocks equal pain. Good stocks equal tame.

500grain,

Do you have a picture of the 470 Capstick stock? What are the subtle differances between it and a bad/kicking stock?

Erik D.