Gents surely somebody has tried this

I picked up 100, new 375 Ruger 'basic' cases and I was thinking about necking one of them with the 458 AccRel die and Fireforming in the accrel chamber

While im sure the shoulder body and neck will form OK , Will there be enough elasticity in the base of the brass to let this happen ????

ShortandFat,

Wouldn't the expansion of the head and body stretch the brass into something possibly too thin? The Ruger case is .532" body at head, while the AccRel is .550". I would probably want to start with RUM brass to guarantee full brass strength through the body.

On the otherhand, there is probably a useful wildcat that could be built (and probably has been built) on the 375Ruger basic brass and the .458 diameter. It would probably duplicate the 458Lott in a standard rifle, though the AccRel already betters that by a small amount (6 grains capacity).

Have you considered using the 458AccRel dies for only building the neck and shoulder? One advantage in that design is that a longer-necked 458/375Ruger could be built by trimming the output case to 2.6", 2.63" (calibre size neck), or 2.65" like the 500 AccRel.

We have a real shortage of brass here in Australia

Seems the US market is buying everything up

I know the RUM brass is wider at the base just wondering if RUGER basic brass (which is close) can or will expand if fireformed in an Improved RUM chamber without splitting

If we can blow taper out of cases and improve shoulders by 10's of thou then surely we get about 15 thou out of the base of the case ???

I just want to know if its been done ????

reg S&F

Seems like another thread on the AR forums discussed blowing out .375 H&H belted brass in a 404 Jeffery chamber - same reason, 404 lack of Jeffery brass.

No idea if successful or not. Or the hazards of using ball powder vs stick powders to accomplish the needed head expansion...

I may be not remembering correctly, but I believe RIP or possibly it was another member figured out that 423 was the largest bullet dia. The 375/416 Ruger case could be necked up to and have enough shoulder for reliable headspace. . . If Imwrong I would appreciate someone setting me straight. I will have a Ruger reamer run into my 458 Win Mag.

I would expect that .458" would work with Ruger brass.

The difference between the bullet, .458", and the brass, .532", is 0.074" inches. By way of comparison, the 500AccRel has a .589" case body head dimension, and a .510" bullet. The difference is .079" and works very easily. There appears to be plenty of room, with only a different radius of .0395" on the 500AccRel and .0370" of a .458Ruger. It would allow something like a body taper of .006" over a 2" case length, and then a shoulder of .018" on a side (.036" shoulder diameter), and .013" neck brass thickness (.026" +.510" neck diameter).

I recall reading about people using a wrap of tape at the case head when forming 7.7 Jap from .30-06, which has a smaller case head diameter. the idea was to have the case body expand concentrically. in shooting winchester 6.5x55 brass in my M96 Mauser (about 9 thou difference), the cases did not expand as concentrically as I would have liked, and I could see where tape would have helped. I will tape the next batch, and see if it helps. after the forming, no more tape is needed, obviously.

in your situation, I would use either a false or a long shoulder at the top, and tape at the bottom, to get the best possible alignment in the chamber for fireforming. if you use loaded rounds to form, a long-seated bullet should work instead of a shoulder. still use the tape at the case head, to keep things concentric all the way to the base.

light loads with lubed chambers are said to help.

sorry we are starving everybody out. the silver lining should be the subsequent glut of supply and low prices when people have finally bought enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I may be not remembering correctly, but I believe RIP or possibly it was another member figured out that 423 was the largest bullet dia. The 375/416 Ruger case could be necked up to and have enough shoulder for reliable headspace. . . If Imwrong I would appreciate someone setting me straight. I will have a Ruger reamer run into my 458 Win Mag.

I never said .423 is the biggest to go on a .375 Ruger basic case, just maybe it was the biggest I would consider, before I had firsthand experience with the 400 Whelen.
The .458 Ruger shoulder is a wee bit bigger than the 400 Whelen IIRC, and ought to be workable, especially since the .458 Ruger shoulder could be blown out a few thou bigger than the .375 and .416 Ruger shoulders, with a custom reamer:



Instead of .458/.375 Ruger I chose to get a .458 B&M made, as the magic wand for elephant control work.

The cartridge on the far right below is a .458, then .423, .416, .395 and .375:



.458 B&M, which has a shoulder AND a base diameter similar to the .458 AccRel:



I think it would be a very bad idea to blow out the base of a .375 Ruger basic to make it fit a RUM based .458 AccRel.
Just like it was a bad idea for our friend in RSA to make .375 H&H fillout a 404 Jeffery chamber, see that thread ...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/7181041491/p/1

quote:

I think it would be a very bad idea to blow out the base of a .375 Ruger basic to make it fit a RUM based .458 AccRel.Just like it was a bad idea for our friend in RSA to make .375 H&H fillout a 404 Jeffery chamber, see that thread ...

Ron,
Thanks for clarifying the .375 H&H/404 Jeffery thread.

CTF,
I have previously commented on the .458 caliber being the largest to "upsize" the .375/.416 Ruger case to - with a huge caveat - that being if the shoulder diameter is increased then it can be "upsized" to .475 caliber. At that point it would be much easier to use the Hornady .375 Ruger Basic Brass than "upsizing either the .375 or .416 Ruger formed brass.

But I will say, once one arrives at the .475 caliber without using a belt then you're better served to use either the RUM case or the 404 Jeffery case for the derivative cartridge to assure sufficient.

Jim,
Have you made a drawing of the .475 Ruger-Ward?
CAD it!
That would take almost no case taper on the Ruger basic case to make a .475/.375 Ruger with a tiny shoulder.
Hey you could end up headspacing on the case mouth or extractor like some people claim to do.

quote:

That would take almost no case taper on the Ruger basic case to make a .475/.375 Ruger with a tiny shoulder. Hey you could end up headspacing on the case mouth or extractor like some people claim to do.

Ron,

Yep way back in 2009.

Better yet, I already have a PT&G finish chamber reamer and C-H reloading dies for a .500 caliber 2.65" cartridge using the Ruger Basic brass. Yes it does headspace on the case mouth (2.650") or extractor like the 50 B&M (2.670"). It has very little case taper and has an actual 0.5225" 0.522" (Edit: found my actual measurement notes) case mouth diameter using the basic brass. The finish reamer and dies are labeled "50 MDM".

I designed 2.65" shortened RUM case, LOL... also named "50 MDM" earlier but after many back n forth discussions with Michael I settled upon using the 375 Ruger Basic brass.

While having the finish reamer and reloading dies manufactured I procured a Wiebe 5MX bottom metal, 5-down drop box for the .375/.416 Ruger cartridge, to use for the 50 MDM in one of my FN commercial M98 Mauser actions. You waylaid that with the 12.7x68 Magnum (338 Lapua Magnum) based wildcat as I just couldn't resist going bigger..

How 'bout a photo you ask?

Here ya go. 550gr SST/Lehigh Copper FN Solid seated to fit within a standard length magazine...

.475 Ruger .500 Ruger

Wildcatting is just like "Being good."
It is its own reward.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


.475 Ruger .500 Ruger

Yep, I designed the .500 caliber 1st and then the .475 caliber while .500 caliber finish reamer and dies were being manufactured.

The freebore is a bit long at 0.490", but it was designed before the BBW#13 nose style and meplat was designed and finalized. So the freebore was set so that the cartridge could be chambered in standard magazine with the upper band out, or in a 3.6" magazine with the two upper bands out using either the 550gr or the 510gr FN Solids to maximize powder capacity and performance.

Chamber is set with a straight taper from bolt face to freebore, 90% chamber mouth, while the reloading dies are tapered to 2.300" length and cylindrical from there to freebore commencing.

Kinda funny, based on the QD drawings and computations the .375 Ruger Basic based 50 MDM cartridge has perhaps a couple grains greater powder capacity than the RUM based 500 B&M cartridge.

Kinda funny also, I had two finish reamers manufactured, one with 1º30' throat angle and one with 0º30' throat angle. Probably ought to have the second reamer re-cut for use with the CEB, GSC, and NF Solids and perhaps tighten up the chamber diameter at the chamber/freebore junction; only need to assure the gauges set works with the modified reamer...

For the .475 caliber using Ruger Basic, have drawing only which very likely needs to be updated from what we learned with the 500 AR Nyati - no need for a lot of freebore to accommodate all currently manufactured .475 caliber bullets. Guess on a also need to settle on an exact case length; match the commercial .375/.416 Ruger or go with the longer 2.65" case length. Guess I'll have to check to see if I have an appropriate die sleeve for the Ruger's neck and a .475 caliber bullet. Will have to wait until Monday to dig everything out 'cause we're busy tomorrow...

Jim,

Hope you can post some of those immaculate CAD drawings of a Rugercat or two, cartridge and reamer.
Should be very enlightening for us masses.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,

Hope you can post some of those immaculate CAD drawings of a Rugercat or two, cartridge and reamer.
Should be very enlightening for us masses.

Well, you have the .500 caliber posted above - it's actually the only one created though I reckon I could crank out another one or two with current CEB bullets. But it'll be Monday before that happens...

The .475 depends upon whether I have the correct die insert 'cause I've nothing in .475 caliber.

I can do a .475 Ruger chamber print and electronic dummy cartridge though; do you want the .375/.416 Ruger case length or 2.65" to match the .500?

Ok Ron. I've copied the pertinent posts from this thread. Monday I'll dig my dies, reamers, and 375 Ruger Basic brass out of my storage boxes and see what I can put together for you - including photographs.

Cartridge and reamer drawings will be updated in QD to reflect our gathered knowledge since the summer of 2009; I'll post those as well.

(Hmmm. A .458 Ruger to go along with my .395 Max. Might be a great new prairie dog gun for use on the Colorado plains.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
(Hmmm. A .458 Ruger to go along with my .395 Max. Might be a great new prairie dog gun for use on the Colorado plains.

With all those Kalifornia transplants feeding them like pets they should be just about proper size by now for that new dog rifle.

Jim,

Don't want you to go to any trouble with creating dummies, just drawings.

The .458 Ruger dummy I made has a mid-neck diameter of .488".
If the Standard shoulder of the cartridge for .375 Ruger is .515" (correct me if I am wrong off the top of my head)
then the shoulder minus neck-one is .515 - .488 = .027".

That is better than a 400 Whelen.
Even with my improved 400 Whelen-Berry, that difference is only 0.021" for cartridge brass maximum spec,
apples to apples.
One might have to specify a brass maximum for the .458 Ruger neck-one of about .492" for apples to apples, tolerances.
That is .515 - .492 = .023"
which is still better than the 400 Whelen-Berry by .002".

Hey, maybe just running a .375 Ruger reamer into a .458 WinMag chamber with a .458 pilot would work.

Only thing is that the .458 WinMag throat is a long and sloppy-wide funnel.
It is over an inch long before the leade-only throat gets down to bore diameter.

It would be better to start with a virgin .458 barrel and a .458-piloted .375 Ruger reamer,
then use a .458 Lott reamer to make the neck and throat.
Voila.

I would be very interested in how your max brass specs compare to your minimum chamber specs for headspacing a .500 Ruger.
.475 Ruger too.
.458 Ruger three???
I am a real beggar, eh?

Hey Ron,

Arrived home a few minutes ago and just now trying to catch up on the posts right now while sipping some coffee. Give me a few minutes and I'll crank up the PC and grab some specs...

Ok Ron... Go here:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...251006302#4251006302

Sorry for the threadjack S&F...

Ok. I got going on other things about that time and didn't keep up on the 395 thread. . That would be an easy fix for the Win Mag. No action work required like going up to Lott. .

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,

Don't want you to go to any trouble with creating dummies, just drawings.

The .458 Ruger

Hey, maybe just running a .375 Ruger reamer into a .458 WinMag chamber with a .458 pilot would work, eh?

This sounds like a very good idea.