All this talk of shooting Elephant at 100yds or got me curious as to what you Gents would consider to be an adequate caliber? Obviously it must have sufficient penetration to reach the vitals, maybe even exit. What caliber would YOU choose?

Why do I have a nagging sense this is going to become the latest version of a Mark Sullivan like discussion.

Just to go ahead and stake out a position on the subject, I would like to nominate Shootaway as the Cloned Alien on this thread.

I might try this:

RT-20 (rifle)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
RT-20

A bipod-mounted RT-20
Type Sniper Rifle
Place of origin Croatia
Service history
In service 1994–present
Used by Croatia
Specifications
Weight 19.2 kg (42.33 lb) With Scope and Bipod
Length 1,330 mm (52.4 in)
Barrel Length: 920 mm (36.2 in)
Cartridge 20 × 110mm
Action Bolt Action
Muzzle velocity 850 m/s (2,789 ft/s)
Feed system Single shot, Manual Load
Sights Rear: Inbuilt Scope
The RT-20 is a Croatian anti-materiel sniper rifle developed by Metallic in Rijeka in the mid-1990s and marketed by RH-Alan. It was developed to shoot the thermal sights on Serbian M-84 and T-72 tanks. The name itself is actually an acronym of the Croatian word Ručni Top 20, or "Hand Cannon 20mm". Operating with a bolt action, it houses a single 20mm round and must be reloaded after each shot. Given its large caliber, it is one of the most powerful anti-materiel rifles currently in use by any country and is comparable to the South African NTW-20 and the Indian Vidhwansak, with the difference being that the RT-20 is recoilless.
[edit]Specifications

A unique feature of the weapon is the counter-recoil reactive tube or the back blast above the barrel. This tube funnels gasses from the cartridge out the back end, similar to that of a recoilless rifle or rocket launcher.
This system is seldom used in small arms and comes with its disadvantages. It can not be fired in confined spaces, for example with things, such as walls, in close proximity to the rear. Another possible disadvantage would be that the gases from the back-blast can be detected by the enemy and the sniper's hiding position would so be compromised.
In the RT-20 however these negative effects proved to be not as relevant as in an anti-tank weapon, as in its case the portion of gas funneled through the venturi tube is far less than what will exit from the muzzle.
Another characteristic that differs RT-20 from other heavy sniper rifles is that both optics and bolt lever are positioned on the left side of the rifle itself. It is also important to note that the maximum effective range of the RT-20 depends on the nature of the target.
Chambering 20x110mm Hispano, the rifle fires a 130 gram (2,006 grains) projectile at a muzzle velocity of 850 m/s. Producing a massive muzzle energy of 46,962.5 J. In other words it can penetrate the armour of any modern day APC at ranges out to 800 metres.
[edit]

.470 Capstick.

.458 Lott.

.416 Rigby.

George

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Why do I have a nagging sense this is going to become the latest version of a Mark Sullivan like discussion.

MJines,

At least make it good:
Mark Sullivan shooting a Weatherby Mark V Crown with a muzzle brake in 460 Weatherby Magnum caliber wearing a 4-12X Tactical Scope shooting Barnes original monolithic RN solids at a distance of no less than 100 yards at a drugged, high-fenced, formerly circus-bred elephant.

. . . with that tactical scope mounted in a primo set of Weaver rings.

Lal,

First off, I think that the biggest problem is getting the projectile to the desired target. At 100 yards animals can move, branches can be clipped. A hunter needs to be able to 'read' when the animal has just settled down so that there will be a 1+ second lull from any movement.

Second, the best solids are flatnosed and they have terrible BC's, giving up alot of energy and corresponding momentum for penetration. But the faster shooting DG rifles would be up to the task: 416 Rigby, 450Rigby/460Weatherby, 500 A2/Mbogo, all of these loaded for max penetration, say around 2600-2700fps muzzle with the heaviest FN solid in the calibre that does that.


PS: I am not an elephant hunter, and have never shot at one, but they occasionally cross my paths when hunting other animals.

416Tarzan, thank you for that. Im wondering how a 9.3x62, 375 H&H, 378 Weatherby would perform at that range...? As I said earlier Im just curious. Thanks in advance.

6 barreled, 20MM, Vulcan Cannon gatling gun mounted in the nose of an F/A-18 Hornet, firing 6,000 RPM, or in the case of the Hornet's full capacity, a 5.8 second burst of 578 rounds.

Piloted by Mark Sullivan of course!!

5.8 seconds of full-on Gattling: Is that when the F-18 stalls out from recoil?

That would be the A-10 you're thinking of RIP.

The Hornet NEVER had an issue with raw POWER!!

Now, carrying enough fuel to keep feeding those engines is another story altogether!

Of course the A-10 has a 30mm cannon-not the wimpy little 20mm of a F/A-18.

7.62X39-has probably killed more elephants at long range than any other cartridge. DEM HIGH CAP mags are just meant for Killin things( quote from Douchebag Schumer- on the rare occasion he was sober)

The OP is a silly question I won't attempt to answer, but remember, if that Ele at a football field away appears to be close to a 100 pounder, I'm killing it!

As to the A-10, I hope everybody remembers that the USAF tried to get rid of that aircraft, primarily because it failed the panache test for an Air Force jet - think fighter. Of course, then the gulf war started and guess what? The ugly, slow A-10 kicked ass, big time, in exactly the role it was designed to perform - tank buster and close air support. It also kept flying with multiple hits and extensive airframe damage from hostile fire, bringing its valuable pilots home safely. Well named, that "Wart Hog"!

Semper FI

quote:

Originally posted by lal:
All this talk of shooting Elephant at 100yds or got me curious as to what you Gents would consider to be an adequate caliber? Obviously it must have sufficient penetration to reach the vitals, maybe even exit. What caliber would YOU choose?

45-70 of course. The slower the better penetration. Probably would shoot through two elephants.

I support the A-10 opinion...

Dangerous game ain't dangerous at 100 yards/meters...

As to the A-10 issue, yeah, I tried out to be an airfarce pilot as well, but when they realized my mom and dad were actually married, they sent me over to fly for the NAVY!!



But yeah, we had several things that would take care of an elephant at 100 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The OP is a silly question I won't attempt to answer, but remember, if that Ele at a football field away appears to be close to a 100 pounder, I'm killing it!

Semper FI

This is the point that I tried to make a competent hunter/shooter makes the kill. IMHO the hunter/shooter in the OP was neither.

I've never hunted elephant and I'm not saying one should take the shot, but an elephant's heart is the size of a basketball. Any rifle and rifleman using a 375 H&H and up should be able to do the job. Am I wrong?

With me it would depend on where I was hunting, some concessions are on the river in Zimbabwe across from RSA for instance and if your bull gets back in RSA (Kruger)you have a nightmare on your hands..

As to caliber and 100 yards, I'd want a 460 WBY and 500 gr. flat nose solids and be in the middle of a big concession and be looking at the bull of a lifetime and no other window of opertunity was going to be available, otherwise I rather get with 25 yards to shoot, and that is usually possible or at least that has been my experience with elephants. Under certain conditions such as a sleeping elephant, a head shot at 100 yards is possible with a good rest and plenty of time to shoot. Many big bores will shoot and inch at 100 yards. Just some options to think about and open to discussion. I have never shot an elephant at long range, but my elephant hunting has been somewhat limited but I have observed enough elephant hunting to have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done.

Looking at the published Weatherby data at http://www.weatherby.com/produ...pare&compare=Compare

At 100 yards a 460 Wby is better than a 458 Win and the 416 Wby is about the same as a Rigby. My 460 with me shooting using a scope at 5X I have held 1.5”. So the cartridge and the rifles can do the job at 100.
So if this long range shot at 100-150 yards is not the first shot but a second or greater at a fleeing elephant the rifles are pretty much just as effective as at close range.

I have never hunted elephants, lack of opportunity and cash. But if/when I do, my vision is to be close enough to smell the peanuts not from at 100+ yards.

Mark

I was contemplating building a 495x600OK. This would be a perfect reason!

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I was contemplating building a 495x600OK. This would be a perfect reason!

Wouldn't that effectively be a 505 Gibbs? You can probably handload the Gibbs to whatever level you are comfortable with.

Meself, I love the sound of '505 Gibbs'. It will handload way past the Jeffrey. However, bullet selection is restricted. If going big, you might try the 505/510 wildcat.

.416 Barrett will work if you just HAVE to go Elephant sniping...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
6 barreled, 20MM, Vulcan Cannon gatling gun mounted in the nose of an F/A-18 Hornet, firing 6,000 RPM, or in the case of the Hornet's full capacity, a 5.8 second burst of 578 rounds.

Piloted by Mark Sullivan of course!!

Todd,

Ah ha! I understand. After talking to a pharmacist friend who used to fly the USAF F-15 a while ago.

Your little F-18 only carried enough ammo for 578 rounds possible to be fired.
The F-15 carried about 50% more 20mm ammo than you did, same gattling gun.
And the F-15 could also take off straight up right off the runway like a rocket,
though it did not have as tight a turning radius in a dog fight, as your ankle-biter jet, eh?

6000 rounds per minute, 100 rounds per second, 6 shots per revolution of the 6-barreled Vulcan.
It took about a half-second for the Vulcan to get up to 1000 RPM of spin, when you pulled the trigger on the stick.
1 second bursts of about 100 rounds each?
Finger off trigger and the gun stopped firing, but still took some time to stop spinning and stop ejecting the unfired ammo into the pod inside the jet, eh?

Might as well just do a 5.78-second "burst" to maximize shots on elephant hunted with F-18, if the barrels don't melt.

Headsup display with moving crosshairs, producing the proper lead if you are following the target in the same plane of flight, computer used radar tracking to figure the lead,
so all you had to do was keep the "waterline" of your craft following the target and keep the target in the moving crosshairs. Simple enough.

Preferred range to target? About 1000 to 2000 yards, so bogie's shrapnel did not hit your jet?
Also, don't fire a burst and then dive down into it as you might catch up to the downward arcing bullets and shoot yourself.

The Zoomie I talked to said they had 9X or 10X, fixed-power Leupold scopes mounted in the cockpit, fixed solid and sighted in parallel to the waterline of the F-15.

This was for verifying the far-off target speck was not a friendly before shooting,
as has happened with some of our fliers shooting down our own helicopters.

What scope did the Navy use?
What scope would be best for elephant hunting,
or would iron sights be preferred?
You get less shrapnel blowback, since elephants don't fly,
so you can shoot elephants inside of a quarter mile, I reckon, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
6 barreled, 20MM, Vulcan Cannon gatling gun mounted in the nose of an F/A-18 Hornet, firing 6,000 RPM, or in the case of the Hornet's full capacity, a 5.8 second burst of 578 rounds.

Piloted by Mark Sullivan of course!!

Todd,

Ah ha! I understand. After talking to a pharmacist friend who used to fly the USAF F-15 a while ago.

Your little F-18 only carried enough ammo for 578 rounds possible to be fired.
The F-15 carried about 50% more 20mm ammo than you did, same gattling gun.
And the F-15 could also take off straight up right off the runway like a rocket,
though it did not have as tight a turning radius in a dog fight, as your ankle-biter jet, eh?

6000 rounds per minute, 100 rounds per second, 6 shots per revolution of the 6-barreled Vulcan.
It took about a half-second for the Vulcan to get up to 1000 RPM of spin, when you pulled the trigger on the stick.
1 second bursts of about 100 rounds each?
Finger off trigger and the gun stopped firing, but still took some time to stop spinning and stop ejecting the unfired ammo into the pod inside the jet, eh?

Might as well just do a 5.78-second "burst" to maximize shots on elephant hunted with F-18, if the barrels don't melt.

Headsup display with moving crosshairs, producing the proper lead if you are following the target in the same plane of flight, computer used radar tracking to figure the lead,
so all you had to do was keep the "waterline" of your craft following the target and keep the target in the moving crosshairs. Simple enough.

Preferred range to target? About 1000 to 2000 yards, so bogie's shrapnel did not hit your jet?
Also, don't fire a burst and then dive down into it as you might catch up to the downward arcing bullets and shoot yourself.

The Zoomie I talked to said they had 9X or 10X, fixed-power Leupold scopes mounted in the cockpit, fixed solid and sighted in parallel to the waterline of the F-15.

This was for verifying the far-off target speck was not a friendly before shooting,
as has happened with some of our fliers shooting down our own helicopters.

What scope did the Navy use?
What scope would be best for elephant hunting,
or would iron sights be preferred?
You get less shrapnel blowback, since elephants don't fly,
so you can shoot elephants inside of a quarter mile, I reckon, eh?

The F-15 doesn't have a Tailhook. Enough said or would you like to discuss kill ratios during the last war that mattered (Vietnam)?

The .50/.600OK-3.2 Inch is way more than a 505 Gibbs. I actually built one for 1000yrd unlimited class competition and it did pretty well ( <4 inch groups). 750 gr bullet at 2750 fps as I remember. It would be more than enough for Ele and gets pretty close to .50BMG without crossing the Military cartridge line. Will fit in a GMA, just barely.-Rob

Tailhooks! Another reason my Air Force buddy routinely beat Navy F-18s in dogfights with his F-15!
Those Swabbies practiced carrier landings so much, they didn't have time to sharpen their dogfighting skills.

quote:

The F-15 doesn't have a Tailhook.

We want to shoot ells -not fish for them---

RIP,

Your pharmacist buddy has been hitting the meds!!

We used to routinely whip those 15's. I don't remember EVER loosing a fight to a 15. AND, we had a higher thrust to weight ratio, so yep, 100% vertical ... no problem!! Actually I'll rephrase that. The 15's were bad ass at long range, beyond visual range, radar missile in the face. Probably nothing better. But once we got into the phone booth and the knives came out, we'd eat them for lunch.

Here's some trivia for you. What 2 US aircraft models had air to air kills in Desert Storm? 15's and 18's. Well, there was that F-14 shoot down of one of it's own A-6 Strikers with my buddy Bob Wetzel (pilot) and his BN Jeffery Zaun (remember him on CNN with his beat up face, the first airman captured and put on TV) but we won't count that one!! After that one, the kitty cats were restricted to overwater CAP!! Hornets did all the overland strike escort!

Our HUD sight had two modes: Air to Air and Air to Ground.

A to A - Uncaged pipper with circular range indicator showing min and max range per radar calculations. With the pipper on, you got 3 shoot cues: Flashing shoot strobe, "Shoot" on the HUD, and "Bitching Betty" said "Shoot, Shoot". With the cues, pulling the trigger resulted in 100% hits. 578 rounds was more than enough!!

A to G - Caged circular pipper with min and max range indicated per the radar. Yeah, not smart to watch the bullets impact!!

Actually, the reason we had a lower quantity of ammo was for weight and balance issues landing on the boat. We didn't need no stinking 2 mile runway! Jorge knows, real mean flew with a tail hook between their legs!!

RIP, one last zinger: Never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll tell ya! If he isn't, why embarrass him?

But yeah, I'm quite sure it would take out a 100lb ele at 100 yards. IF Mark Sullivan was at the controls!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

RIP, one last zinger: Never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll tell ya! If he isn't, why embarrass him?

That is a good one! But I have been smarting from the essence of that since I got "spectacles" in the 8th grade,
got caught squinting at the eye chart! Dreams shattered!
OK, OK, I know you guys were like prima donna ballerinas and the rest of us support people were just stage hands at the ballet.
Nice tutu.

I snapped this pic of the perfect long range elephant cartridge today with my iphone,
and the perfect "30mm Elephant Chaingun" in the background: Geronimo!!!
Derivative of the .375 H&H, headspaces on the belt, and that silvertip ain't a Winchester on this dummy:



The DU solid is an FN that is about 4" long 1.18"-caliber, need the weight to figure the SD but ought to be adequate, especially at 3300 fps MV:



This Israeli Apache looks like the perfect bakkie for the "hunt":



1200 rounds of 30mm ammo should be enough for a day of "elephant hunting." 16 Hellfire missiles are a comforting backup, real charge stoppers.
Adequate:



This US Army extraction exercise photo shows just why the Apache makes the perfect bakkie:
Tourist hunter/shooter in the front seat for best jollies,
PH/pilot in the back seat,
and tracker out on the stub-wing.
Tracker has a stick in his hand to tap on the windscreen and point out elephant to PH:

That Apache would "Git-R-Done" I do believe!! Interesting pic with the guy riding on the outside!!

Listen, those choppers can do one hell of a lot of damage and they can hang around long enough to get it done. Lots of staying power. Brass balls if you ask me to go into a hot zone slowly, then hang around beating the air into submission the entire way!!

That's a major round there, eh? 30MM. I wonder what the bullet material is? Depleted Uranium perhaps as in the A-10? Could even use HEI if hunting 100 yard tuskers near the boundary!!

Yep, that'll kill a 100 pounder at 100 yards for sure. Even without Mark at the wheel!

Edited to add:

IIRC, that gun is controlled by a helmet mounted sight system, following wherever the gunner/pilot is looking. Wonder what the rate of fire is on that gun?

625 (+/- 25) rounds per minute, practical rate 300 RPM,
or about 5 to 10 elephants per second!!!
If you believe Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M230_chain_gun

The M230 Chain Gun is the Area Weapon System on the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter and is also used on the MH-60L Direct Action Penetrator (DAP). The M230 is mounted on the chain gun turret. It uses a 2 hp electric motor to fire 30 mm linkless ammunition at a rate of 625 (±25) rounds per minute. The gun requires a spool-up time of 0.2 seconds to achieve this rate of fire. The practical rate of fire is about 300 rounds per minute with a 10 minute cooling period as the gun is air cooled.[3] The gun has a positive cook-off safety for open bolt clearing, and double ram prevention. Spent casings are ejected overboard through the bottom of the gun.
The mount on the AH-64 uses secondary hydraulics to move the gun. Elevation is provided via a single hydraulic actuator located on the gun's centerline just forward of the pivot point. The gun is spring-loaded to return to its centerline stowed position with the barrel angled up about eleven degrees in the event of a loss of hydraulic power. This allows the gun, which is mounted below the copilot station, to collapse cleanly into its designed space between the pilot stations in the event of a hard landing. This prevents the gun from entering the pilots stations and becoming a hazard.
The Apache is capable of carrying up to 1,200 rounds for the gun in a device known as the flat pack. However, utilization by the US Army of a special internal fuel tank, the Robertson IAFS (known as the Robby Tank to the crews), reduces this capacity to 300 rounds.[4] The ammunition is loaded into the AH-64D Longbow Apache by armament personnel using an aircraft-mounted motorized loader and special ammunition handling tray. The AH-64A requires specialized ground support equipment for loading.[5]
The M230 is capable of firing the ADEN/DEFA 30x113 rounds, however, the Lightweight 30 mm rounds (M788/M789/M799) used in the M230 are constructed with a light alloy as opposed to brass or steel casings to save weight and are in use with the US Army. The M230 rounds are not backwards compatible with weapons designed for the ADEN or DEFA rounds. The M788 rounds can be distinguished by the blue band near the nose, the M789 by a yellow stripe atop a black band and the M788 a red stripe atop a yellow band.[6][7] The M799 HEI round is not used by the US Army due to the danger of a round exploding in the gun barrel. General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems, a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), has been awarded a contract for the production and delivery of 30mm M789 High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP) ammunition cartridges by the U.S. Army Contracting Command. The 30mm M789 HEDP is the primary tactical round of the Apache AH-64 helicopter, widely used in current combat operations. The Apache’s ability to provide accurate air support with minimal collateral damage led to increased use and volume demands for M789 ammunition.
The M789 is typically used in the M230. Each round contains 21.5 g (0.76 oz) of explosive charge sealed in a shaped-charge liner. The liner collapses into an armor-piercing jet of metal that is capable of penetrating more than 2 inches of RHA. Additionally, the shell is also designed to fragment upon impact. The lethal radius against unprotected, standing targets is about 10 ft (3.0 m) under optimum conditions. The M789 requires about 2 seconds to travel 1,000 m (3,300 ft). However, as the shell slows down, it takes over 12 seconds to cover 3,000 m (9,800 ft).[8]
[edit]M230LF and MAWS
The M230LF, offered by ATK is a more capable version of the Apache autocannon. Features include an anti-hangfire system, a delinking feeder that exploits linked ammunition, and an extended-length barrel, which results in greater muzzle velocity and hitting power from the same M789 HEDP and NATO standard 30mm ADEN/DEFA projectiles. The rate of fire is reduced to 200/minute and overall length increased to 85.87 inches (218.1 cm). The chain gun can be installed in an enclosed turret on patrol boats and ground vehicles.[9]
The MAWS (Modular Advanced Weapon System) lightweight gun system, developed in partnership with the USN, utilizes a remotely operated M230LF in an open mount. It is controlled by a Remote Operator's Console (ROC)--with either dual grips or a joystick--from a touch panel display and extended day color TV.[10][11]

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

625 (+/- 25) rounds per minute, practical rate 300 RPM,
or about 5 to 10 elephants per second!!!

Coincidentally, The Military Channel had a show last night about military choppers, and the Apache won the countdown from 10 to 1 for top spot.
It has got to be number one for elephant shooting at long range also.

Looks like we just redefined the term "unethical hunting"!

465H&H

Any .416 or larger caliber bullet of sufficient sectional density and good construction, and with a muzzle velocity of 2,400+ fps, would get the job done, if well placed, of course.

It has been done, many times, and even by hunters using lesser calibers. But for greatest reliability, I would want something along the lines noted above.

Not that I would necessarily do it, or recommend to others that they do it . . .