Greetings all, seeking a little sage advice on some sighting in difficulty I'm having. Leaving on my first trip to the Dark Continent in July for buff and plains game, so I'm practicing hard.

I'm shooting a Blaser R8 Safari in .375 w/ a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x scope, and just having a devil of a time getting a good pattern. Anything within 25 yards is fine, but beyond that I'm just all over the page. This is after about 3 boxes of shells, and with my buddies checking my form to make sure I'm not developing a flinch.

Wind has been variable from 5mph up to 20mph during the three different trips to the ranch, but you'll have to take my word for it that I can dope the wind well enough to be inclined to think that's not the problem. Shooting off sticks, both seated and standing, with a rest under my right elbow. I've checked and re-checked the saddle mounts for stability and everything seems to be working fine. Further, my scope was mounted by a quality gunsmith here in the DFW area.

Any ideas on what it could be?

If anyone is gutsy enough to come along shooting with me and lend a hand, I'd be happy to host (Abilene, TX area). I'll supply the hooch and treat you to my world famous fajitas as a thank you. Just want to get things right before I'm sitting on the tarmac wondering if my rifle is game time ready.

Bring your rifle and your Fajitas up north, we will sort it out!

I had to send one Trijicon back with a parallax adjustment problem. Could not get it to shoot at 100 yards. Are you sure it is not the scope?

Hello Stack,
1.What size groups are you getting? (Shotguns shoot patterns, rifles shoot groups.) What size groups do you get with other rifles using the same techniques? Is there vertical or horizontal stringing. Are groups round or odd shaped? Flyers?

2. Try to isolate the variable affecting your outcome: gun, scope, mounts,ammo, shooter.

3. gun: stock bolts or screws, crown, bore, bedding

4. scope: bases and screws, rings and screws, is the scope good? Has another gun with that scope shot well?

5. Shoot from a bench with front and rear sandbags. Sticks can make it difficult to shoot good groups. I like to have a virtually motionless rest/position.

6. Ammo: try another bullet weight or style. The ammo might just be crap even though it was expensive.

7. Wind does affect groups, although a 375 at 50 yds is not going to be radically changed. Try to touch off the shots when the wind feels about the same.

8. Are you calling the shots centered? How do you call them when dry-firing?

My first thought would be either the scope or the mounts. I have had scopes fail before, cost me 2 deer before I figured out it wasnt my shooting.

Your rifle may not like the ammo you are using. I have seen a rifle that loved Winchester ammo but hated Remington.

I applaud you for two things

a. Wanting to get things right before travelling to Africa.

b. Willing to share and learn.

As for answers, I don't have any. I suppose I would start with the most basic.
1.Do you have another rifle that currently shoots good groups?
2. Can you slap a tried and true scope on the Blazer and see if it groups?
3. Since I'm not a Blazer owner the following may not be applicable, but I would carefully look at the bedding. Last year I had a 'new' used CZ 416 Rigby whose point of aim would shift around unpredictably. At first I thought it was the scope. Then I bedded the factory set up. It seems that the recoil had been imperceptibly moving the bedding around, including that barrel lug.

Blasers are notoriously accurate. If you are shooting factory ammo, try another brand. If that fails, I'd try another scope. You don't need to bed a Blaser barrel.

Hard to answer your question at such long distances, would have to have the gun in hand and at the range and shop..but my advise determine if its the sight first of all and if not then send it and targets back to Blaser while you still have time.

Stack Shot,

First thing I thought of was that as mentioned your rifle does not like the load you are shooting. A different load can make a radical difference. I have a model 70 chambered for 375 WBY and the chamber is cut to the standard factory specs. It shoots the Factory WBY ammo into 3"-4" groups but with good hand loads shoots 1". Try some different ammo before fiddling with the scope and rifle.

Good luck!

Mark

A vexing problem for sure. To rule out the scope I take a reverse approach. Put the scope on a another rifle with known consistent accuracy and see if there is a change with the typical grouping. This will rule out the scope. If the scope is Ok remount and try a different ammo. Still a problem change the base and rings. After that it's time for a call to the factory. Hang in there.

I would also look at the barrel/stock assembly. It may not be seating or locking up correctly since it is removable. You have an incredible rifle IMO and I would expect superb accuracy from it.

Just an observation here, not really an answer, but I recently had a client come in for a feral hog hunt, and I managed to get him on to a spot and stalk situation. He missed the shot, and I decided we needed to go to the range I use and check the zero on his rifle.

Do not remember what brand of .375 H&H it or what brand of ammo, but it was factory ammo.

We started out at 25 yards to get some idea of where the gun was shooting. Turned out it was hitting fine up and down, but 3 inches to the left.

After a few more shots and adjustments he was hitting almost dead center at 25 yards, so I put up a target at 100 yards and he sat down and took the same hold that he had for his last two shots at 25 yards.

I figured if anything he would or should be hitting a little high with a center hold at 100 yards. At the shot, I looked at the target with my binoculars, and the bullet had hit over 6 inches low and to the right of the bulls eye.

He had brought only one box of shells and we were cutting into hunting time so I loaned him my .35 Whelen and he got a pig with it.


So I don't know for sure what the problem was, just found it interesting that someone else was having issues with a .375 H&H concerning accuracy.

My guess is scope. I've seen this several times and except for one case (mine!) it was the scope. I can't believe it's the ammo unless it's really really old. Next thought is if you're shooting from a rest make sure you have a firm grip on the foreend and hold it the same way for each shot. I started out shooting my 375 H&H bench rest style (like I do for my 270) and it was all over the place. A firm hold and it grouped beautifully. My guess is you know this already and it's your scope.

Good luck!

In a similar situataion, the first thing I would do is find out if it is me or the rifle causing the problem. Shoot another rifle or have someone you know that is a good shot shoot yours. Then change scopes followed by a different brand of ammo. If it is still a problem, quit wasting time and get it to a good gunsmith.

465H&H

Many thanks gentlemen, I appreciate the assistance.

So gathering all the responses together, I think my problem(s) could be one of the following:
a) Shooter - easiest to identify, but hardest to admit. If a friend shoots my gun with different results, bingo.
b) Scope - should be relatively easy to identify if I try switching optics at 25 and/or 50 yards and see if it patterns.
c) Ammo - I'm factory ammo trash.

I will take some pictures or scan the targets I have and post later today or tomorrow to serve as another data point for you all to analyze.

In the meantime, I think my order of ops come Saturday is this:
1) Hit the range with a friend and an extra scope. We both shoot 3-5 shots, then we take a look.
2) Assuming #1 is tried and no conclusion, I switch scopes. Repeat #1.
3) Assuming #2 gets me no closer to identifying the problem, I then switch ammo. Repeat #1 again.

If #'s 1-3 get me nowhere, then it's time to visit my gunsmith that afternoon. I should be good and flustered by that point.

Thoughts anyone? Fire away...

Just how bad is it shooting? When my parallax adjustment was off, it went from centered at 25 yards to over a foot high at 100 (6.8SPC) and would not group even once I pulled it way down. If it just won't shoot better than 1-1/2 or 2" at 100 it could be ammo, but if it is all over the paper it is probably something else (assuming all bullets are going through nose first, etc.).

Did you shoot the same factory ammo with all three boxes you tried?

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Just how bad is it shooting? When my parallax adjustment was off, it went from centered at 25 yards to over a foot high at 100 (6.8SPC) and would not group even once I pulled it way down. If it just won't shoot better than 1-1/2 or 2" at 100 it could be ammo, but if it is all over the paper it is probably something else (assuming all bullets are going through nose first, etc.).

Did you shoot the same factory ammo with all three boxes you tried?

All ammo was the same, Federal 300gr A-frame. I'm generally on 12in x 12in paper out to 100 yards, but nothing grouping anywhere at 50+ yards.

I think my over zealous secretary threw away my practice targets in my office, so no pictures or scans.

Lots of good advice here. I would also closely inspect the crown of the barrel for any irregularities. Any small burrs, does the rifling stay uniform to the crown, any excessive copper build up etc. Even minor crown problems will play havoc with accuracy. Not common but I have had it happen once.

Lot's of good advice here. Let's look at the variables and what is most likely. Loads -- could very well be the problem. I doubt the R-8 is. Scope could be an issue. One other variable is you. Have a friend shoot a group. See how that works. If the rifle/scope/load combination still doesn't shoot, you've eliminated a problem.

This is the time for sandbags and rests, not sticks. JMHO.

"Dude - shoot this thing and see if it groups for you" would be the first thing I ask a buddy.....

Sounds like a scope/mount/crown issue to me, assuming it is not some kind of major flinch. But I have no personal experience with a barrel crown issue so that part is just a guess.

Do you have any other loads you can try just to rule that out?

I think that the discussion thus far has pretty much covered the field.

If you take a small caliber centerfire with you to the range, you can eliminate yourself from the equation.

From there, the easiest variable to change is ammo. After that, the scope, then the scope mounts. Do the easy stuff first, and eliminate as many variables as you can, as quickly as possible.

I found out quickly that my New R8 did not like the Winchester 400 gr Nosler solids for the .416 but it settled right down with my handloads. Andrej with Blaser in San Antonio told me that two of the important things for accuracy with the R8 is making sure that there is no oil on the bottom of the barrel or the action where the barrel indexes with the action. And the same for the scope mount, make sure it is dry and clean. Mainly, an ammo change made a huge difference with mine.

Hi,
One thing I've found with my 375 H&H Ruger No1, is shooting position.

To explain, say I zero the rifle off a sandbag rest, depending where the stock contacts the bags can make a significant difference to the POI, 3-4" at 100 yds. The rifle needs to be repositioned after each shot to ensure uniformity, sling swivel studs are a constant nuisance as they can affect how the rifle rides the bags.
A similar situation developes when I shoot off my Bog CLD sticks, if I hold the forearm and place the back of my hand into the rest or rest the forearm directly on the rest shifts the POI.

These days I shoot off the bags for load development and testing, but sight in holding the rifle as it would be used in the field.

Hope you get it sorted

Stack Shot,

When I said one of the variables was you, I did NOT mean to imply that I meant there was a shooting/flinch problem, which some of the subsequent posts might seem to imply. While that certainly would be a factor to eliminate, I'll give you an example of a rifle I could not get to shoot and "I" was the problem.

It didn't fit me and I tried to make it work. I would shoot two distinct groups, depending on how I set up with the rifle. The only fix was to make the rifle fit me. Just wanted to make sure that no offense was taken by my earlier post.

My guess is that it is an ammo or scope issue. I have a Zastava left hand Model 70 that has a 1x4 Leupold VXll mounted on it. With Federal factory 270 grain ammo, it does AT BEST 2 1/2 inches at 100. With 270 grain TSXs and H4895 it stays in ..730 to .750 at 100. If you aren't willing to reload, try another brand of ammo. It may make a bigger difference than you might think.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Stack Shot,

When I said one of the variables was you, I did NOT mean to imply that I meant there was a shooting/flinch problem, which some of the subsequent posts might seem to imply. While that certainly would be a factor to eliminate, I'll give you an example of a rifle I could not get to shoot and "I" was the problem.

It didn't fit me and I tried to make it work. I would shoot two distinct groups, depending on how I set up with the rifle. The only fix was to make the rifle fit me. Just wanted to make sure that no offense was taken by my earlier post.

No sweat, I appreciate the advice. I'll take it any way I can get it if it'll help me work through this problem.

Stack keep us informed. We want to see you sort this out.

Best of luck!

Chuck

What goes in my mind two shooters shooting at 2 separate targets 25 50 100yds compare results.

Do not look at targets for comparison till done shooting.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
Stack keep us informed. We want to see you sort this out.

Best of luck!

Chuck

I certainly will. Weather looks like it's going to hold, so I'll either head to the range or the ranch and get this figured out. At the very least, I should be able to rule out one or more of either ammo, scope, or shooter from the equation.

The 25 yard zero with a scope and the 12.5 yard zero with irons doesn't work in many cases, it will 99% of the time get you on the paper so you can make the correct adjustments to set you POI at center or high whichever you prefer..

I bore sight at 100, that almost always gets me on the target and I make my adjustments at 2 to 3 inches high depending on caliber, that will, and again depending on caliber, put you about 4 inches high at 200, on at 250 to 275 and usually about 5 inches low at 300...but you MUST shoot your gun at 100, 200, 300, 400 and even 500 so that you KNOW where your particular gun shoots at those ranges...Many a big game animal has got a free walk because someone didn't shoot their rifle at those ranges prior to their hunt..

quote:

The 25 yard zero with a scope and the 12.5 yard zero with irons doesn't work in many cases, it will 99% of the time get you on the paper so you can make the correct adjustments to set you POI at center or high whichever you prefer..

My reasoning for the 25 yard zero, is to cut down on the number of shells required to get a person on the paper at 100.

I have watched too many folks get frustrated by starting at 100, not knowing where the gun is hitting. Just from my experiences, unless the target is placed on a new, never fired at target backer, it gets too hard for most folks to figure out where the bullets are going at 100 yards.

Twenty five or even 50 yard starting shots in my opinion gives a point of reference for the shooter.

I guess I approach sighting in a new rifle scope combo for anyone using the lowest common denominator, that being I have no actual knowledge of how knowledgeable/experienced the shooter is.

Someone with lots of experience won't have as much trouble as the occasional shooter, again just my opinion.

To me, it just seems to give the shooter more confidence and gets them to work at it a little harder if they are at least on the paper, even if it is only 25 yards.

Different strokes for different folks.

Crazy

Understand where you are coming from and agree
to an extent but I think what goes on before
even getting to the range is more important.

Atkinson mentioned "I bore sight at 100, that almost always gets me on the target"

He knows what he is doing.

I would say that if a person can't hit the target at 100 on a newly set up rifle, then
the rifle hasn't been set up properly.

Even a numbskull can bore sight a rifle at 25, 50 and even 100 and get the cross hairs
within a few inches of where the bore is pointed. And that's before you even look at
using some of the very cheap devices on the market for doing the same thing.

So, if the scope hasn't been set up properly, yes, a target at 25, 50 might be important but if it has been, 50 as a minimum IMHO.

The kicker in all this is "A Properly Set Up Rifle".

The difference being experienced shooters versus occasional shooters.

I could agree if everyone came into the game with the same level of experience knowledge. That is not always the case. But even with a properly bore sighted rifle, an initial shot at 25 yards with a center hold should be on the paper.

Again this is just the way I do things and other peoples mileage will vary. I simply look at the issue from the stand point that not everyone is starting off with the same experience/knowledge.

Having had the problem with new factory rifles, I would go back to basics - put on a more powerful scope, make sure nothing is loose, shoot some from a sled but be careful there s not too much lead so you break the stock, then shoot from bags, with a Evo shield if you re concerned with recoil so you dont flinch. Double up on ear protection to help build your confidence. Try different ammo. If still a problem you may need a major redo on your rifle by an experienced gunsmith - trigger, barrel, crown, stock. Unfortunately your time is running out so consider a back up plan.

So StackShot? Results? I'm hoping you have this sorted out.

Just shoot it at 100 yards with the iron sights. You should be able to shoot a 3" group with irons.

Once you have established that the rifle is
doing ok, try the scope.

BTW - I bore sight about 2" to 3" high at 100 yards like Atkinson except for the low velocity rounds like the 38-55 and 45-70. Those may need to be bore sighted 18 inches to 3 feet high.

Ok everyone, I'm back in the game here. My sincerest apologies for my absence, but life and career hit pretty hard before I left for Africa, so I didn't have time to get back to AR prior to takeoff. You'll have to take my word for it that I did feel bad for not circling back on this.

The good news is, I took good notes during my time at the range on that particular weekend (note taking practice for my safari journal), and have answers to share. I felt it only fair to close the loop here before I posted my hunting reports or stories.

First off, I grudgingly enlisted the help of a good friend of mine - we'll call him Amigo - that spent 15 years in the infantry. Now, I must be clear that when I say "grudgingly," I'm referring to the requisite amount of friendly ribbing that I get from this guy whenever I ask his help with firearms. Friends like these, eh?


So we hit the range, each man takes 4 shots at getting to 3" high at 100 yards holding on center:



Now, in the sake of full disclosure, Amigo was watching me shoot and made two adjustments to the scope before shooting. We surmised that I was probably suffering from bench flinch. So one more scope adjustment, and four more shots:



Not as bad as the first 4 rounds, but still no good for us. At this point we're good and frustrated and the Texas temps are heating up, so Amigo takes the rifle and starts to do his thing and tells me to watch and learn. I won't even post the pictures of what's left of those targets. It got ugly what with all the scope clicks, cursing, tobacco spitting, angry trips downrange, etc. etc.

So now I'm back to the stated gameplan (see my post above). We've crossed out "bad shooter" as the problem since we've had a pro behind the wheel and made some adjustments to my bad form. Our scope adjustments have gone across the board, and aside from determining that I need to practice with a triangle reticle, we not getting zeroed. So, that leaves us with ammo to test.

I'd like to pause here and make an admission of guilt to you all, and ask for forgiveness: Prior to this whole mess and against my better judgement, I bought a large quantity of a particular brand of ammo on sale. I figured, "what are the odds that my gun doesn't like this, right?" Well, such is life....


We switch out ammo, and here's what we get:



A few scope adjustments, a little Kentucky windage to get to the bullseye (held 2-2.5 inches low), and we end up here:




We went to the bar shortly after and celebrated. I took one more trip to the range prior to leaving, and still at zero. When I hit the range in Zim, I had just a few "travel" adjustments to make to my setup and was good to go.

Recapping:
1) Shooter - slight problem here, but only part of the equation. Corrected some bench flench, and practiced with the triangle reticle.
2) Scope - adjustments made were all within normal course of range operations; not the problem.
3) Ammo - part of the problem; in the end, my gun did not like the loads I was feeding it; expensive mistake, but a lesson learned nonetheless.

So, I'd like to thank everyone for their advice. Taking the time to join AR was well worth it, otherwise I might still be a the range sweating in the Texas sun with spent brass scattered around and a gigantic retired vet cursing in my ear and offending everyone within earshot. However, I would be remiss if I didn't kindly let you fellas know that everyone but Alaskaman will regret not taking me up on my offer for free Stackshot fajitas. Y'all might can shoot, but it seems tunnel vision is a problem for most of you when it comes to the finer things in life!

Now, on to my hunting report...