I have been using 81gr.of IMR4831 in my 400 double with good results with the 400 Woodleigh sp and the 300 gr. Hawk. Tried RL 15. 71.5 shot the best with the 300gr and the 400gr. Both loads shot to the sights and the right,left bbl groups were within 1 inch. I fired these loads sitting at 63 yards. Why 63yds? because there was a good place to sitdown there. I've loaded 40 rounds of the 71.5 recipe so we will see how they do during some field shooting and over the chrono. I did not use any filler with IMR4831 but used foam cut with a 50BMG case about 1 inch long.

Out shooting Peggy's rifle again?

Rusty Yes, I am going to look at and test fire another 450/400 3 1/4 in a couple of weeks and I am hoping it will shoot the same loads as "Pegs" 400. I will test it with the IMR4831 and the RL15 loads that shoot good in the current 400, both the 300gr. and the 400gr. bullets. I think It would be really handy to have a 400 each that shot the same loads.

NE 450 No. 2:

I have some of the current Kynoch (Kynamco) stuff in .450/.400 3" NE. These are also loaded with a filler - a foam earplug! These are exactly the same as the ones you buy at the range when you've forgotten your muffs.

With RL15 in the 3", I use 1 grain of poly (pillow stuffing) fill. This DOES make a difference in consistency of ignition with shot to shot velocity change usually in single digits. The last time I clocked a 10 round string, extreme spread was 20fps, both barrels taken together.

The last time I loaded 3 1/4" was a long time ago and I was still using 4831 then, without a filler, so I don't know what amount to suggest for the 3 1/4". The .25" longer neck would seem to want more than 1 grain though.

"Serious rifles have two barrels."

Thanks for the info. The foam I am using weighs about 1 grain. I have not used poly in the 400, buy I have used it in my 450 No2 but I think I like foam better.

N E 450 No2

Do you need to use a filler.

In the 460 Wby 85 grains of 4064 and 500 Hornadys does just over 2000 f/s and superp accuracy with no fillers.

Ignition with 460s is always difficult because of the big freebore. Light bullets will exaggerate the problem.

But, I have never had to deal with getting 2 barrels to shoot together.

But I would expect that the 450/400 would have rifling very close to the bullet and a case capacity that would be smaller than the 460.

Mike

NE 450 No. 2:

What make of .400 are you sneaking up on? Be hard to beat your LSP.

"Serious rifles have two barrels."

Mike 375 from all I have read a filler is always recommended with RL 15 in the bigger Nitro cases.
400 Nitro, I went to look at and shot another LSP 450/400 3 1/4! It even had the same writing about the sights on the bbls, but most of it had been buffed off sometime in its life. The rifle had real good bores but the exterior was not in near as good of shape as my 400. It shot ok with 400gr Woodleigh softs with 81gr. of IMR 4831 and 71.5 of RL15. The 300gr Hawks crossed at 25 and 50 yds.
I looked at about 20 to 25 Big Bore doubles on this trip but did not see anything I liked better than the ones I have now.

450No2/400NE,
I thought fillers to be a bad idea, but it appears neccessary in the looong cases and I will be loading for two 450NENo2's as soon as I get them back (pedersoli kodiak and Ruger#1 rechambered) so a couple questions:
What type of foam seems to work best? How thick a plug? Does it need to fill from powder to bullet base? Do you just cut a plug with the 50bmg case then push it firmly against the powder charge?
Can you really just stuff an earplug in there?
Any residue from burnt/melted foam or does it just vaporized?
Thanks in advance for your patience with newby questions.
Ron

I have used both the IMR 4831 and RL-15 loads in my 450-400-3" and I get no varience in velocity to speak of and 1" groups on a bad day at 50 yds. both are 1" high and velocity averages 2144 FPS with RL-15 and about the same with 4831 at my last chrono session....

I use a little stiffer RL-15 load than what has been quoted here to bring it to zero and the shots together..

I don't use the 4831 load anymore because of rumored problems with 4831 and doubles. The RL-15 is just as good..variation is less than 10 FPS, velocity is up there, accurate is great, so why use anything else. thanks Rusty.

I have never used nor needed a filler in the 3" which is what "Sweet thang" is...I do not believe the 3" requires a filler as it was developed for smokeless powder...My powder charge pretty much meets the bottom of the bullet I believe.

At any rate it shoots like no other double I have seen and kills like the hammer of thor, hard to beat that kind of a combo...

NE 450 No. 2:

Welcome back. How was your hunt? Told you your LSP was gonna be hard to beat.

Kenai Captain:

The filler really helps shot to shot uniformity with RL15 in the large cordite cases. The bigger the case, the more important it becomes. The new Kynoch .450/.400 3" NE that I tried, which used a foam earplug for fill, left no residue that I noticed. With RL15 in the .450 No. 2 you will need a filler. I use dacron fill in the .400, but see no reason that foam shouldn't work OK. Yes, you want to fill the air space.

Ray:

I'm curious as to the components you are using, especially primer. I usually get single digit shot to shot velocity spread with RL15 in my .450/.400 3" with 1 grain of dacron fill, but not without. I'm using Bell brass, Woodleighs and Federal 215s.

Best regards to you all.
---------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Captain Kenai/Ron,
I think that others besides Ray A. have had good results with the 450/400 NE 3" using RL-15 and no filler. Some may use filler to get even smaller Sd's out of their loads in the 400 NE, as 400 Nitro Express himself does. He uses 1 grain of filler dacron fluff, so that shows that the case is at a no-filler/filler margin. Anyway, Sd's around 10 fps are more than accurate in a double rifle.

You will want to use a filler, for sure, in the 450 NE#2 if using RL-15, which I think is the way to go in a double. You might choose to use the slower powders with no filler in your Ruger No.1 450 NE#2, but that would cause need for segregating loads, best to stick with one load you can work up with RL-15 for both rifles.

I might be the first guy to suggest, on these boards, using a 50 BMG case with the mouth chamfered sharp to cut foam wads for the 470 NE. That is a great tool. I like the foam wads. They are easy to handle and vanish without a trace on firing. A denser foam like the EAR foam ear plug might leave some debris down range, but I don't know, haven't tried them, though they work great from all reports. You might need two ear plugs for each of your 3.5" long case.

I think you might need about 3/4" to 1" thick of the packing foam plug cut with a 50 BMG case for your cartridge. If you get a thinner sheet of foam and stack the thinner wads, it is easier to cut them uniformly and get just the right amount to to hold the powder in place.

That much foam weighs only a grain or two, whereas the dacron filler to do it will weigh about 5 or six grains, I guess.

If you use the lighter foam wads you may need about a grain more powder than with the dacron filler, which is heavier and less compressible than the foam.

Either way works fine.

Thanks! for the help guys, I'll keep you posted on reults,and I'm sure I'll run into more questions
Regards,
Ron

400 N.E.,
I use Mast (Bell)and RWS brass in my 450-400-3", prefer the RWS and I use only Fed 215 primers. Woodleigh softs and solids, GS solids and 71 grs. of RL-15 for a chronographed MV of 2155 as I recall. all loads shoot 1" or a bit better at 50 yards and all shoot to the same POI btw...I remember it took about 2150 to come to POI...I have loaded up to 74 grs. but started group size changing just a bit...My gun is a 60 Cordite gun and that can make a bit of difference as some are 55 cordite guns, mostly the the 3-1/4" guns are 55 cordite guns as I recall...I'm not sure that makes any difference as to actual strenth of the gun..I know a lot of 55 cordite guns that take the same loads as mine without problem...

I will always opt not to use a filler if at all possible...I know of instances wherein fillers have caused some serious problems but only with certain powders like IMR-3031 in the old days, as far as I know..I would add a grain of powder as opposed to a filler if I were you and see where that goes..it's worth a try.

I have to add that my gun is a wonder and I doubt that anything that applys to other guns would apply to this one, it is just a marvel in that it shoots ALL loads tried and that is some 10 or 12 different combinations to the same POI and into less than two inches for all..most in an inch or perhaps a tad over....I have never owned a double like this one..I bought it for resale, but that all changed after I shot it..I have had it for quit some time now. It is a grand little gun.

Kenai Capt I have used IMR3031 IMR4831 and RL15 in my 450 No2 double with good regulation and accuracy. I think I like RL15 the best with 480 Woodleighs and 500gr Hornadays. My rifle is marked 75gr cordite 480max. The best load in the rifle so far is 89gr. of RL15. I have not chronographed that load yet. This rifle shoots the 350 Hornady to the same point of aim and regulates just as good as the 480 and 500gr. bullets with the same amount of powder that works for the heavier bullets. At first I used poly, 5 grains with 81gr of 3031 and also with 100gr. of IMR4831. I have switched to foam. I have used only foam with RL15. The foam is easier and faster to use, and just as effective as far as I can tell. I cut it out with a 50BMG case chamfered. A foam ear plup is does not have a large enough diameter to work in a 450 No2 case and is not long enough. I use a cylinder about 1 inch long, It is slightly compressed by the base of the bullet. I am also working on a suitable Nitro for black load, so as to reduce both recoil and velocity for close range pig and deer hunting, and plinking. Some where between 50 and 60 grains of 4198 with 15 grains of poly should work, with a 300 to 400gr bullet.

continued... I have used a spongie type of foam and a firmer type and cannot tell if there is any difference yet. I have had excellent results with Bertram brass, I seem to be the only one, but I have cases that have been fired many times and I have yet to ruin a case. You must use a filler in the 450 No2, Even with 100+ grains of IMR4831 I had hang fires without filler,Federal 215 primers of course. I will still probably use 81 gr. of 3031 with the Hornady 350gr.RN, with foam filler as It shoots good and I have plenty of 3031 on hand. I hope this helps, let me know if you need any more info or have any problems.

400 Nitro Had a good time on the hunt, saw 3 bear, called one up to within 20 yards, but while he was a nice bear, he was not a trophy so we let him go. I was using my 9.3x74R Chapuis, a 285 Hawk in the right bbl and a 286 Nosler Partition in the left. One bear was seen after dark and the other was dragging a deer off of the road that lead from our camp to the forest. The deer had been struck by a vehicle.

DaggaRon,
Actually I like the poly filler. It can occupy a larger space with less weight. I use a 1-1.5 grains of poly pillow filler in my 450/400 3'.

Really the basic job fo the filler is to keep the powder up against the primer and insure good ignition and uniform velocity. Ross Seyfried's article on "Reloading the Nitro Express" in Handloader magazine Dec-Jan 2000 is a great source of information on this technique. The filler and the RL-15 are the key to uniformity of velocities. I know that Kynoch's new ammo uses the "earplug" type foam in several of their loadings.

For me the polly filler works quite well!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty,
You must be using some especially dense foam. Must be that GI ground pad foam. I have a bunch of the fiber also and experimented with it. You have to pack it pretty densely to keep the powder from moving against the fluff. It takes less mass of foam to do the same job if we are talking about the polyurethane foam like airconditioner air filters are made of or the "packing foam."

Yes the ear plug works fine in the 450/400, and I have heard that some factory loads (Kynoch) use them.

The foam is less fussy than the fiber filler in my opinion, and works as well, though since it is lighter and more compressible than the fiber fluff, a grain or two more powder may be needed with the foam than with the packed in fluffy fiber/dacron.

N E 450 No2's experience corroborates mine.

As I said before, either one will work well. I have studied the Seyfried article and Graeme Wright.

Of the foam I use, 1 or 2 grains of foam equals 5 or 6 grains of the fluff to get equally efficient charge immobilization in the case.

NE 450 No. 2:

Sounds like a nice time anyway. Beautiful country. I made four trips for bear not far from where I think you were. Got a nice cinnamon the first trip. Lots of opportunities the next three but nothing bigger.

Ray:

Thanks for the info. 69 gr. RL15, 215s, 400 Woodleighs and one gr. poly fill, the last time I clocked it, average velocity was 2151 (26" barrels). The last group I fired with this load was just under 1" at 50yds for four shots. Velocity spread is usually single digit. Without filler, it jumps up to around 25 fps. Still not bad, but the filler is an improvement. That last batch was put up in new Kynoch brass, which is very good, by the way.

You mentioned that you use RWS brass in 450/400 3". Where did you get it? I wasn't aware that RWS ever made brass for this caliber. Were you maybe thinking of your .404, which RWS does make? If they do make it, I'd really like to get some. I've found RWS virtually indestructible in my .400/.360 2 3/4" NE.
-----------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

DaggaRon,
It isn't dense at all, just pillow filling. The grains of the RL-15 are so big that the tuft of poly filler works wonderfully. I have pulled bullets from cases that I had load for 2/12 years and even after that time bouncing around from hunting to the range, the filler held the powder.

The filler is not consumed in the firing, just spat out the bore as would the foam.

Once again I don't think it is what you use for a filler so much as you use a filler to hold the RL-15 powder against the primer for a better ignition, ergo more uniform velocity.
As you well know, the more uniform the velocities are in our doubles, the closer to the same POI we can get our rifles to shoot.
The poly is springy and expands inside the case to fill the space between bullet and powder.
Just my own experience and results.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Rusty,
O.K. Now tell me what more is known about this quote from Ross Seyfried. I am alarmed by just having read this in the Oct. 2002 N0. 219 _Handloader_, page 43:

"... I cannot warn too strongly against using any kind of cereal, plastic or foam filler. While a little foam worm looks innocent enough, I know of two very fine double rifles that have been ruined with foam filler."

This article is about loading the .500 Express 3" cartridge (black powder) with 40 to 46 % of the original BP load by weight using IMR 4198 and 13 grains of the dacron pillow stuffing in that big case.

I know cereal and granulated filler are a lousy idea, but how is that Mr. Seyfried now considers foam filler totally taboo?

Graeme Wright seemed to be leaning toward foam filler in his latest edition of his book on loading for double rifles, and spoke of Ross Seyfried's collaboration on some issues.

So what is the latest scoop from Ross Seyfried? How is it that the foam is bad? Doesn't Kynoch use foam? I am perplexed.

DaggaRon,

News to me. I only use the pillow filler. I have never used a foam plug. I guess we could track old Ross down and find out the skinny?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

400,

Both right and wrong...I checked and my other 450-400 brass is headstamped Rigby (made by RWS) not RWS, however RWS did make 450-400-3" brass for the Old Western Scrounger, up to a few years ago as I recall or have I gotten my 404 and the 450 confused like you said..Now you have really got me confused, and I'm too damn lazy to research it.

Thought I would bring this back to the top because it has some good info on fillers.