I know that this subject has been covered before since I just completed reading through search material, but I still have some questions.

Is the side lock really stronger than a box lock in practical sense? What I mean is this. I want a rifle I can shoot for a lifetime without failures. Does that mean I need to invest in a back action side lock or will the A&D box lock action suffice?

Would I be better off buying a new production Merkel, Searcy, Chapius, Heym, etc, or going with a very good to excellent condition used english or belguim rifle?

How does currently produce NE ammo compare to the original cordite loads? I am concerned that I will have regulation issues with an old english double shooting modern factory ammo.

Should I get a rifle with a third fastener, and why? I seem to get conflicting stories on this one, even from manufacturers of these guns! Remember I want a rifle which will last a lifetime without needing rebuilt every 500 rounds. When I say lifetime I figure that amounts to 2500 to 3000 rounds fired.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Axel

well now, I have only shot about 500 shots through double rifles, so I can not say what will wear one out. But I can guarantee you that if you buy any of the boxlocks or sidelocks you mention, Only a very serious shooting addiction will allow you to shoot enough to wear out the barrels. ANd few of us that work for a living have enough time to hunt enough to wear out a double rifle in a lifetime of shooting one that starts after we have earned enough to buy one!!

I am prejudiced, but if you like hte looks, buy any of the new ones in a rimmed caliber, develop
your loads to its regulated point of convergence and distance, and then treat it like your goal is to just try and wear it out through good honest use!!

However, I will caution you that a double is not a high-use target rifle. They are not designed to be shot at paper, for a hundred rounds a day.

They are designed to be tuned in, shot at game, and then maintained until the next hunt. your 2500 shots is about 1250 a barrel, which is about 50 shots a year for 60 years. That would be a lot of hunting.

Well said, merkelmeister.

Axel,
If you are preparing to sail on the double rifle ship of fools, BON VOYAGE!

The two best choices are the A&D boxlocks of the Merkel 140 or the Searcy Field Grade.

470 NE in either, or you can get a 500 NE from Searcy, if you don't mind the lesser ammo availability. 470 NE factory loads are easy to come by, and Merkel regulates their guns to the Federal Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid loads.

Prejudice abounds amongst the sailors on the ship of fools, and some of those salty dogs are outright liars, especially those that have a stake in selling a particular make. Don't believe everything you hear while down at the docks, preparing to ship out.

Axel,
Instead of taking up a bunch of space here is a wonderful site link to the terms you are asking about
Hollowell & Co. Gun terms

I can only add "ditto" to the above information.

My choices for a NIB double rifle today would be,
Searcy, Kreigoff, Merkel. The sturdy boxlock will serve you well!
Today's doubles are regulated for modern powders. To replicate Cordite loads I use RL-15 and dacron fiber filler. Velocities are extremely uniform with RL-15.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Thanks for the responses, but I am afraid none of you answered any of my questions.

Axel

Axel,

I cannot speak to the strength of the various different actions but would guess all hold up well and all are time proven.

When I wanted a double I bought a Merkel because I thought it felt better than the Kreigoff and these were the only 2 guns I could look at in local shops. Did not want to wait for a Searcy or fly to Ca. to look at one. Same story with looking for a good used one, did not want to go all over the country looking for the "right" one.

If you go to the SCI show in Reno you will get to view many doubles from all the different builders and sellers. I did this after buying a double and after my first safari. If you have the time, do this first, then buy the double that fits you best and you like the looks of. I like to buy new if I can afford it.

My Merkel has a third fastener, which seems like a good idea to me but do not know if it is needed.

New guns are regulated with available ammo, old guns need to have loads developed for them but many people will do this for you. Superior Ammunition is one of them.

I have had my Merkel 470 for 2 years, used it on 2 safaris, and have not had any problems with it.
It shoots well and has about 240 rounds thru it. It is still as tight as the day I bought it so I assume it will shoot many rounds without going off face.

Hope this helps but does not answer your questions. I am but a rookie when it comes to doubles but they are a lot of fun to hunt buffalo and elephant with.

BigB

Thanks for the responses, but I am afraid none of you answered any of my questions.

Is the side lock really stronger than a box lock in practical sense? What I mean is this. I want a rifle I can shoot for a lifetime without failures. Does that mean I need to invest in a back action side lock or will the A&D box lock action suffice?

Merkelmeister said "But I can guarantee you that if you buy any of the boxlocks or sidelocks you mention, Only a very serious shooting addiction will allow you to shoot enough to wear out the barrels. ANd few of us that work for a living have enough time to hunt enough to wear out a double rifle in a lifetime of shooting one that starts after we have earned enough to buy one!!"

Rusty said "The sturdy boxlock will serve you well!"

Would I be better off buying a new production Merkel, Searcy, Chapius, Heym, etc, or going with a very good to excellent condition used english or belguim rifle?

DaggaRon said "The two best choices are the A&D boxlocks of the Merkel 140 or the Searcy Field Grade."

Rusty said "My choices for a NIB double rifle today would be,
Searcy, Kreigoff, Merkel. The sturdy boxlock will serve you well!"

How does currently produce NE ammo compare to the original cordite loads? I am concerned that I will have regulation issues with an old english double shooting modern factory ammo.

DaggaRon said "470 NE factory loads are easy to come by, and Merkel regulates their guns to the Federal Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid loads."

Rusty said "Today's doubles are regulated for modern powders. To replicate Cordite loads I use RL-15 and dacron fiber filler. Velocities are extremely uniform with RL-15."

Axel, I guess you can keep asking the questions until you get the answers you want.

Alex:

From my reading, boxlocks are supposed to be more rugged than sidelocks.

I concur with the others that it's a lot easier to buy modern guns that are regulated with modern ammo. Otherwise you spend a lot of time (and money) testing to find a load that matches the cordite one for which the gun was originally regulated.

For the amount I'd expect you'd shoot the double, I don't think a third fastener would make a difference. I think it's far more important to find one that fits you naturally, whose controls instinctively "make sense" to your hands and subconscious brain, that balances correctly for you, and whose sights snap into line quickly for your eyes and make you feel immediately confident of your sight picture and alignment. FWIW.

Longbob, with all due respect sir, these statements do not answer my questions. Merkelmeister has no idea how much I shoot. I practice with my hunting rifles so they get shot considerably more than the rounds used to actually take game.

No one has stated which action is stronger or better from a durability viewpoint, either. Rusty did provide some insight into powder choice if I chose to develop a load for an old used rifle. BigB provided much better information though!

Personally, I do not like the new rifles all that much. At the same time I want a durable rifle. So I am seriously interested in understanding how the old english guns stack up against the new production guns, since in most cases they are comparable in cost.

No one has commented at all on the third fastener. This does not surprise me though. I have spoken to three manufacturers of double rifles. One said that the third fastener is a total waste of money, one said the only useful third fastener was theirs, and one said a third fastener was mandatory on any big bore rifle if I did not want it to come loose after 50 shots or so. All three manufacturers knew I was talking about a 470 NE or 500 NE.

I hope that MacD37, Todd E, or Ray see this thread and help me out. In my research on this site these three men have spoken with great authority on this subject.

Again, I appreciate all the responses so far, but these responses have not completely addressed my questions.

Axel

Axel,

I suggest that you call Butch Searcy and ask him whether box locks or side locks are stronger. He makes both, so he should know. Please post the answer so we can all learn a bit. Thanks.

http://www.searcyent.com

Axel,

No, we don't know how much you shoot. But one of the responders above indicated that double rifles are not target rifles and won't handle that kind of use. They are designed to shoot 500-1000 rounds per barrel, not 2000, before being shot out. They will probably need maintenance before you get there.

At $8-10/round times 2000 rounds, thats $16-20,000 of ammo at Federal Factory prices! If you reload and cut your expenditure by half. In either case, clearly money is not a significant issue, which is OK, because double rifles are like yachts: if you have to ask about the prices, you probably can't afford one. Buy what makes you happy. You can afford to have a rifle "tightened" if you can afford to shoot it off the face using proper loads.

According to those who have expressed opinions previously, Searcy probably has the best metal available in his rifles. Several doublegun afficianados have said that his were the best value out there today. One could conclude that they would last longer and require less maintenance. But, if you don't like the looks or feel of a Searcy, I don't think Mr. Searcy will mind if you buy a Merkel or an old Army and Navy or Rhodda.

I get the impression that buying a double is like buying a toothbrush or choosing a wife-very personal. The advice about going to SCI and trying a lot of them sounds like a great suggestion. Ku-dude

First let me say I don't own a double rifle but I have helped a few friends get their's shooting with reloads.

Except for the very expensive British rifles I think the one that handled the best, was for me, a William Douglas in .470 Nitro. Very well balanced with superb handling and very accurate.

Is the side lock really stronger than a box lock in practical sense?

NO

What I mean is this. I want a rifle I can shoot for a lifetime without failures. Does that mean I need to invest in a back action side lock

NO

or will the A&D box lock action suffice?

YES

Would I be better off buying a new production Merkel, Searcy, Chapius, Heym, etc,

YES

or going with a very good to excellent condition used english or belguim rifle?

NO

How does currently produce NE ammo compare to the original cordite loads?

Very easy to duplicate old cordite loads using modern powders, but you just will not find any original cordite loads. so the currently produced is available,and the original cordite is not available.

I am concerned that I will have regulation issues with an old english double shooting modern factory ammo.

Based on what you have told us, yes you will have trouble regulating an old english double shooting modern factory ammo. it wont work.

Should I get a rifle with a third fastener,

YES

and why?

Because they are stronger. How could they be weaker with a third fastener unless the fitting is poorly done.

I seem to get conflicting stories on this one, even from manufacturers of these guns! Remember I want a rifle which will last a lifetime without needing rebuilt every 500 rounds. When I say lifetime I figure that amounts to 2500 to 3000 rounds fired.

You told us that you fire about 2500 to 3000 rounds a lifetime, and then you tell me that I dont have any idea how many rounds you shoot..

I give you these answers and give up on helping you any more, since you appear to want someone to tell you to buy an english sidelock.

So go buy an english sidelock in new or excellent condition and it will not last 2500 or 3000 rounds since it will already have 2000 rounds through it!!!

Take a chance and just buy one. Of all the things that we can regret on our last days, my worst fear is failure to act when the chance presented itself.

Just got back from shooting 44 rounds of 9.3 X 74R, at five different loads, trying to get a new load to regulate even better. None of them worked as well as the 286 Nosler Partitions at 2-3 inches per group of four at 100 yards. Also held under 6 inches for four shots at 200 meters.

I do not worry about my Merkel 150E shooting off face every 500 rounds. OF course it is a mild mannered 9.3.

You have been given some excellent advice here by experienced current owners of the firearms you mentioned, (except Krieghoff).

Let us know and enjoy your decision when you decide to buy one... but do not buy it thinking it is a high volume target rifle with inherent accuracy. That is just not the case.

Merkelmeister, thanks for your statements. No, I am not looking for someone to rubber stamp a english sidelock as a best choice. I am not in my sixties so the probability of me shooting a rifle 2500 times in the next 25 to 30 years is quite real. According to some posts I should expect to have my double tightened up 6 or 7 times over those years. This is unacceptable to me. I have a 12 gauge SXS that has over 3000 rounds through it and it is still tight. It is an old Greener box lock by the way. I admit to some ignorance on double rifles so I have asked these questions.

500grains, Searcy is one of the manufactures I talked to directly. The others were an English firm and a German firm. I was more confused after talking to them so I thought I would do some research here. After doing that I asked my questions as I still was not certain of the answers to those questions.

If I offended anyone I am sincerely sorry. It is just that I want a durable double rifle and these weapons are not cheap! So I am trying to get as knowledgeable on them as I can so I make a good decision.

Axel

Axel all double rifles will shoot off the face. All will wear out.

My A. Hollis & Sons circa 1910 a 450/400 3inch is still in good shape and shoot well dispite some throat errosion due to Cordite cutting.

Old British double are beautiful and well made. So are NIB doubles, like Searcy, Kreighoff, and Merkel. NIB and Warranty and available parts means a lot some times!

Most important item to consider about buying a double rifle in my opine is to buy one with a flanged cartridge.

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Axei- I too shoot alot ( that's an understatement if there ever was one). I too did similar research. In the end, I had Butch Searcy make me a .470 NE boxlock with False sideplates fully engraved and built to my specifications( I too know how to build rifles and as a result Butch and I have adeveloped a good friendship). I have never looked back and never had a problem. If I do Butch will fix it promptly and competently in a time frame consistent with the normal aging cycle of human beings (unlike other manufacturers, H&H and Purdey for example ). I know who I'm dealing with and satisfied with the results. I've played with a number of the older guns and from what I've seen unless you are an expert in double rifle mechanics, you won't have a clue to what you buying outside of extenal appearance! My friend just bought a beautiful looking Army and \Navy double in .500NE at twice the price of my Searcy and it doubles unmercifully. Caveat Emptor.-Rob