I can confirm the viability of Ray's load for the 458 lott of 84 grains IMR4064 with a 500 grain Woodleigh soft. I have even shot as high as 88 grains and my gun still works. A long drop tube is needed, but it works fine.

What I do not know is whether the powder charge compression results in the cartridges becoming stale if they sit on the shelf.

Dan,

Ray specified IMR4320!! This may come as news to you but is is a tad slower than IMR4064.

Quote:

---

I can confirm the viability of Ray's load for the 458 lott of 84 grains IMR4064 with a 500 grain Woodleigh soft. I have even shot as high as 88 grains and my gun still works

---

I am sure you can

By the way, are your loads operating within SAAMI pressure limits?? Do you know???

ASS_CLOWN

Can someone tell me the difference between 458 lott and the 450 ackley?

.458 Lott = 2.800" long

.450 Ackley = 2.850" long

A little more powder capacity and velocity for the .450 Ackley over the .458 Lott. Except that same cartridges.

The 450 Ackley is blown out to very straight sides and therefore gets a very small shoulder. The 450 Ackley compared to the 458 Lott is very similar to comparing the 585 Nyati to the 577 Nitro case.



Here is a pictue and loading data from Saeeds loading pages.



http://www.accuratereloading.com/450ackleymag.html



Mike

Ballistically the Ackley is good for about 20 fps more than the Lott when loaded to same pressure. OH BOY, but if you like ot be different, it is just the ticket.

Personally, I would get a 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota, or a 460 Weatherby magnum. These all offer substantially greater performance than the Lott or Ackley.

ASS_CLOWN

Thanks

No difference ballistically. Lott is now a factory round and Ackley is still a wildcat. If memory serves, 458 Win and Lott can both be safely used in an Ackley chamber.

^^^if the recoil doesn't bother you I'd just go with the Lott (which I have ) Plenty of power, and recoil is plenty enough already. If I want more power I'd go with a larger bore as well...

Just today I finally found a 450 grain TSX Barnes load for my 450 Ackley. I have tested at least 6 or 7 powders trying to reach 2400 fps. So far just 2 shots over a chronograph but 86 grains of H4895 reached 2450 and the cases just fell out. The temperature was about 90 so the load if accurate will work anywhere.

Mike

.

How easy is it to form cases for the 450 Ackley? Would it be single pass of say the Hornady basic brass through a FL sizer? I just happened to see a BRNO 602 chmabered for the 450 Ackley for sale and am interseted in it.


Craig

Ass Clown made a point- and it was correct. The advantages of the Rigby/Dakota are no belt, lower pressure cartridges, and potentially higher velocity. I would not favor the Weatherby over these two cartridges.
If the Rigby/Dakota is loaded to the same velocity as the Lott, pressures will be lower which is a good thing when you start talking about 110 degree African sun.
However, if you really want extra power, these can be loaded up to almost Weatherby velocities (same case, just beltless).
I would sacrifice the one round of magazine capacity for the other advantages, but that is IMHO.

IMHO the 450 Ackley is a better cartridge design than the Lott. The Ackley will deliver an HONEST 2400 fps and I've never seen that from a Lott! OK so the difference is 50-100 fps it's still measurable and repeatable. .450 Ackley brass is easily made by fireforming .375 H&H brass with 12-13 grs of bulleseye powder and a little oatmeal. Out pops perfectly formed .450 Ackley brass. The parrallel neck of the Ackley grips the bullets better than a Lott. The ONLY advantage of the Lott and its a big one is that factory ammo is available. One of the smoothest guns I ever built was a .450 Ackley on a pre-war winchester M-70 with a Number 5 pac-nor barrel. Feeds slick as can be and is plenty accurate. IMHO the .450 Ackley/Lott are much better rounds than the .460 WBY. As many others have learned the hard way, 500 grs at 2400 fps is the magic formula. Going faster creates more problems than it solves.Just my two cents!-Rob

Hang on ,I thought that newer 458 Lott brass was coming out at 2.850" length and not 2.800". Is this right. Ive just ordered my Lott reamer to cut a chamber to suit 2.850" cases.

That's just the .450 Watts Magnum spec - Lott designed his cartridge .050" shorter [just so he could put his name to it?].

Custom rifle chambers are usually cut with the Watts spec reamer, to allow the use of all of: 1. full length reformed .375 H&H brass; 2. 2.80" trimmed/factory Lott brass or 3. .458 Win Mag.

Cheers,
Doug

458 LOTT:







450 ACKLEY:







I could not find a case drawing for the 450 Ackley, so I relied on a picture instead. There is a small shoulder visible on the 450 ackley cartridge.



Later I will try to post a page from Any Shot You want which I believe has a 450 Ackley case drawing for more detailed comparison.



BER, not trying to give you a hard time - I was just trying to emphasize the differences. As to the A-Square brass, I can't comment.

The .458 Watts / .458 Lott
African Hunter magazine.

I cannot see for the life of me why anyone would pick the wildcat over the Lott that is now a factory round..

There is no better DG round than the Lott, the rest is just town talk...

a 500 gr. bullet at 2300 to 2350 will lay low any animal on this earth with ease...with power to spare..

If any of the above mentioned calibers are better, then you will have to prove it to me with more than quotes from some loading book showing 50 FPS difference...This pressure stuff for Africa sure gets overplayed on these boards, and belt bashing is just BS, I get the impression some are burried in technical baloony, that has little use in the field..

In fact a good handload in a std. 458 Win will get the job done plenty good, although the cartridge is poorly designed and has compaction problems, properly handloaded it is the darling of 95% of the PHs in Africa....

The middle one is a 450 ackley and the next one to the right is a 458 lott.

Craig, that's how I've been forming my last bunch of 450 Ackley brass. Before that I used necked up and fireformed 375 H&H brass. As I've mentioned in other posts, you can fire a 458 Win Mag in a 458 Lott chamber, the Lott in the Watts cahamber, and the Watts in the Ackley chamber. Sort of like using 22 shorts, longs and long rifles in the same gun, gives you a little bit more versatility. As for which is better, we're splitting very fine hairs here. I prefer the Ackley, but really, there isn't a critter on the planet that will notice the 50-100 fps difference. By the Ackley and enjoy. It's a lot of fun (hard on stocks tho'). - Dan

I have 60 rounds of A2 brass with .450 Ackley headstamp from back when Art had the company. It came new with the sholder formed. It was crap though... too soft... had bad extraction problems. I now use Hornady basic magnum brass and form it...simple and cheap!
Ghost

Watts, Barnes Supreme, Ackley, Lott ... there is not a mouse fart difference between them. Any of them with sane loads in the 24" barrel will do about 2150 to 2250 fps. after that there is too much powder compression, too much pressure, or just too much fussing with drop tubes, etc.



Ross Seyfried will tell you that pressures are maxing out with velocities just barely over 2200 fps with the Hornady factory .458 Lott in a 24" barrel.



I have the circa 1949 .450 Barnes Supreme, which is nearly identical to the .450 Ackley. Which came first? I shoot the 2.80" .458 Lott also. No practical difference whatsoever. I just load to the 2200 fps mark with either one of them, well maybe 2240 fps in a 25" barrel, to split hairs, but that is all with 500 grain bullets.



The wildcat 45 Lapua is the best answer for 2400 fps with 500 grain bullets in a 22" barrel. No sweat. No problems. Faultless. I no longer give the 460 Wby nor 450 Rigby/Dakota any consideration.



But the 45 Lapua is not for every dog in the team. You gotta be a lead dog to see the new scenery.



BTW, when you neck up or blow out a 2.850" .375 H&H to .458, it shortens. That is why Jack Lott went with the 2.800" max, trim to 2.790".



If you want 2.850" Watts, Barnes Supreme, or Ackley brass, you have to start with cylindrical basic brass, or get it it already formed with the proper headstamp.

RIP I am glad you came out with your post because I wanted to ask Jeffe a bit about his results. I have had for a long time a 450 Ackley, it was my first custom... it�s a 22" M700 push feed. It looks to me that on the "Reloading Pages" of AR they were able to get very close to 2400FPS; Jeffe also said the 450ackl would reach an honest 2400. Mine however, does a dishonest 2300~... that is... I can barely do 2300. Loading around 2240 (right where RIP has noted though mine has a 22�) is where I reach a max and I keep my everyday loads right on 2200... these are all aprox... in my rifle I have seen 100fps slower with different bullets, then my max with the same weight. I know barrels can be faster, and in many cases I see that a rifle not total square will shoot slower than when it�s corrected. I do not doubt anyone, but how do they get an honest 2380-2400 and what was the velo when the charge was max, before you backed off to get the honest 2400? I don�t think I would want to be "there" with anything less than a 450 Rigby in capacity. At 2150 you have a 200 yard rifle, IMO, even on large game with 500 gr RNs. I have never been disappointed with the 458win mag at 1900, though it�s a silly cartridge and even more so now that the lott is no longer a wildcat. That rifle is sing'n Jeffe!!

smallfry,

My experiences are very similar to yours, with 500 grain standard lead-core-copper-jacket bullets.

My best load in a 22" .450 Barnes Supreme was 2202 fps.

My best load in a 25" .458 Lott (2.800") was 2240 fps.

These loads were accurate and "honest" as you say, with no special tricks required. Easy 100% density loads.



Over and over I see velocities reported about 100 fps higher than real, by many loading manuals and manufacturers of factory ammo, whom I suspect throw in a Chronograph Re-calibration Factor (CRF) for marketing hype.



Everybody seems to want that last extra 100 fps for some reason.

MLindsay,

Ah! The Barnes TSX 450gr/.458. Will wonders never cease? Good show! Thanks for the data. What is the barrel length?



Note to self: Try H4895 with Barnes TSX 450 grainers to get 2400 fps out of my .450 Barnes Supreme, maybe, with my 22" barrel.



More and more I am leaving the IMR's behind and going to H's. I formerly used IMR 4064 in the .450 BS, 82 grains with 500 grain old-fashioned bullets. Maybe no more.



I used 84 to 85 grains of RL-15 in the .458 Lott with 500 grainers, solid-soft respectively, to duplicate the Hornady factory loads.



JJHack uses 450gr/.458 X-Bullets in his .458 Lott at 2300 fps, IIRC, not TSX's, which sounds like a very sensible load to me.

RIP

The barrel length is 22.5. I tried numerous poweders including R15 and reached 2400 with several but had extraction problems. Most of these consisted of just the case requring a good tug on the bolt but that was unacceptable.

I have worked also on numerous loads for the plain 500 grn Barnes X but have achieved only under 2200 fps. Will try the 500 TSX soon.

Mike

In my previous 458 Lott, which had a 21 1/2" barrel, which was back bored 1 1/2" and ported, so effectively somewhat shorter, I was able to achieve 2280 fps with hornady 500 gr softs over 87 gr RL 15, a compressed load. Now, that gun had a very long throat, and a somewhat large chamber. Cases showed no "pressure signs" and easily extracted from the chamber. I haven't had a chance to test loads in my new 458 Lott with 22" barrel. I wouldn't be suprised if it was slower than my old gun. Since the Lott is a wildcat, there are alot of differences in chambers, and I wouldn't be suprised if many of the ones out there have chambers and throats that allow more speed than the factory offerings.

Good point Paul.

Norbert had something he called the ".458 Lott Improved" and had a load of 90 grains of VVN-540 that gave velocities in a 25" barrel (IIRC):



2402 fps 500gr Hornady TM/FMJ

2362 fps 500gr Barnes X



And with 88 grains of VVN-540 he got:

2346 fps 500gr Woodleigh



These were said to be pressure tested and O.K.



But what exactly is the .458 Lott Improved?



I still say there is not a Lott of difference between any of the .458's based on full length (2.800 to 2.850") .375 H&H brass. And the factory .458 Lott ammo by Hornady with 500 grain bullets, in the average 24" barrel,is closer to 2200 fps than 2300 fps as the packaging claims. Just par for the course, and to be expected, and safe in any situation.



BTW, the .450 Barnes Supreme/.450 Ackley comparison:

case length: 2.830"/2.850"

shoulder width: .498"/.500"

neck length: .350"/.345"

shoulder semi-angle degrees: 4.42/3.94 !!!

water grains: 113.01/114.91 (according to John J. Donnelly)



Both suffer from a short neck.

It looks like P.O. Ackley designed his 450 to clean up the older .450 Barnes Supreme chambers, just barely.

Smallfry,



I can get an honest 2185 fps out of a 458 Win mag and a 24" barrel with 500 gr Hornady or Woodleigh SP. This represents the pinnacle of performance that can be obtained with Rel 7 / IMR3031 in a 0.458" bore. The 458 Lott, Watts, or Ackley cannot handle anymore Rel7 or IMR3031 than can the 458 Winnie mag, albiet these larger cases will not have the powder compression of the Winchester with these two powders.



In order for the Lott, Watts, or Ackley to beat the old Winnie they must step down to a slightly slower powder, (4320, 4895, Varget, Rel 10, 4064, W748,etc, etc). By the way, it takes considerably (in the range of 10% to 18%) more of these slightly slower powders to surpass the performance of Rel 7 or IMR3031.



In my experience the Lott, when loaded to heavily compressed charges of IMR4320 can beat the Winnie by about 80 fps (2260 fps +/-), and this with a case capacity increase of ~ 12.5 grains of water! Right in line with your experiences it seems.



There is a much larger difference in case capacity between the Lott and the Winnie(~ 12.5 grains of water) than there is between the Lott and the Watts, Ackely, Barnes Supreme (~ 1.5 - 4 grains of water). So I find it very difficult to believe that the Watts, Ackley, or Barnes Supreme would outperform the Lott by more than 20 fps or so. There simply isn't enough extra case capacity to shift to the next slower series of powders and increase the charge weight of powder to the degree necessary to get that level of performance. The simple FACT is the Lott has near optimum case volume for the powders in the 4985 through 4320 burn rate. Just like the 458 Win mag has a near optimum case volume for the Rel7 / IMR 3031 burn rate powders.



So if you want more performance than a Lott can give you you must jump up to the 450 Rigby, Dakota, or 460 Weatherby. These cases allow for relatively massive loads of the 4350 series of powders to be ingested, and deliver large performance increases (or far better, far lower operating pressures!!!) than are achievable in the Lott, Watts, Ackley, or Barnes Supreme.



Now then, that should answer the questions put to me on this thread, too!



Flame away!



By the way, I no longer have a Remington M742 30-06. I now have a gun collection consistenting of:



Alexader Arms AR15 (RRA) in 50 Beowulf

Daisy Champion 99 BB gun

Winchester M94 30 WCF (aka 30-30).



I decided to get the 30-30 based upon everything I learned here at AR concerning the benefits of flat pointed bullets and low velocities, with regard to penetration and overall terminal ballistics that is.



EDIT to address MLindsay and PaulH.



MLindsay,



The problem you are describing occurs at chamber pressure of ~ 70,000 psi. Reduce your pressure to SAAMI spec and you will be in the 2250 to 2280 fps range!



Paul,

Your experience seems to fit mine well.



ASS_CLOWN

WOW!

I figured that my last post would have gotten me flamed and good! Darn!

ASS_CLOWN

I only asked about the difference because I have just bought a Ruger No.1 that has been rechambered to 458Lott and I remembered that both the Lott and Ackley were formed from 375H&H roughly full length, thanks to all. Have been told I can use 45-110 and 45/70 brass if I resize using a 458Win die, as the Ruger will extract fine although the cases will expand into the belt area of the chamber.

It is easy to get 2350 FPS in a Lott with about 84 grs. of IMR-4320, that is the load that I settled on some years ago...David Miller also uses this load for his Lott and it is the load that G. Sitton settled on in his great article on the 458 Lott in Rifle Magazine no. 135, dated May-June 1991...In a 26 tube I have had two 458 Lotts that would churn up about 2500 FPS with a tad more IMR-4320, but recoil was grim to say the least..I always used the 84 gr. load in the field...

I know this contradicts ASS CLOWNs usual BS, but then that is what we have come to expect..

Ray,

Quote:

---

In a 26 tube I have had two 458 Lotts that would churn up about 2500 FPS with a tad more IMR-4320

---

I think you need to get your chronograph calibrated!



That or you need to switch off the "Weatherby Factor" button.







2350 fps with a 26" tube is possible if NOT very probable.



ASS_CLOWN

Good ol' ASS CLOWN. Our resident expert on everything related to shooting, reloading and hunting.

BUTT JESTER

Well if the shoe fits!