Hey everyone !
I need to have some datas on the .450 DAKOTA cartridge which is merely the same as the .460 without the belt,,,but which have the best performance if there are any difference between them at all ?

I can't tell the difference, although I think the Dakota has a better case design.

The 460 is loaded hotter by Norma. Faster, and hitting harder.
As far as accuracy,with "factory" rifles, if it's even an issue at 50 yards, the 450 might have it, with no freebore.
Trigger

The pick of the .458 cal big bores would either be the .450 Rigby or the .458 lott. I would opt for the lott as it has been legitmised by the manufacturers and you would get a greater mag capacity from your CZ than you would otherwise get with the bigger cases. It is also a cheap and simple conversion to do to a cz from all accounts, it also shoots the right bullet at the right velocity so will suffice for anything you would want to hunt. It would aslo be great for driving cheap 45/70 bullets abnormally fast to shoot at hoppers

Well, if you really want to compare the cartridges on a fps basis then consider the following loading data:

460 Weatherby w/500gr Bullet - 104gr of H-4350 nets around 2439fps - Max load per Hodgdon

.450 Dakota w/500gr Bullet - 110gr H-4350 nets around 2460fps - Max load per Dakota and me

I have shot the .450 Dakota for many years. I tend not to load it to the max. My utilitarian load is 110gr of H-4831 which nets about 2385fps +/- .

The fact is, the .450 Dakota, 460 Weatherby, and the .450 Rigby are equal in performance. However, both the Dakota and Rigby come without the belt or the goofy Weatherby shoulder.

[ 12-11-2002, 02:04: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Zero,

This what I got off the Hodgdon site for 460

H4350 115.0 2508

Mike

Thanks Mike. I went to their site to look at the new .460 load data. They certainly have bumped up their charge weights for the cartridge. The new Hodgdon manual should be out soon with more loads for the big bores.

If you consider the case dimensions for all three cartridges, all are extremely close to the same powder capacity. All three case designs can achieve the same performance at a given chamber pressure. Granted, you can gain a few more fps with lots of free bore, however, I am not real wild about the idea.

All I know is pushing a 500gr bullet at 2500+ fps is no fun to shoot.

[ 12-11-2002, 02:29: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Zero,

Here is the load data from the source of the powder, Australia Defence Industries (ADI). It is called 2209 in Australia.

500 AR2209 24" - 0 0 115.00 2508 0

Actually, I think those velocities might be a bit high because in the two Japanese 460s I owned I got right on 2500 with 115 grains of IMR 4350 and 2209 is more like IMR 4831. At least it is more like IMR 4831 when used in a 270.

Mike

My Rigby chrono'd at 2285 with 105 gr. of IMR 4350. I think I'll up the load a grain for a secure 2300+ a little. I figure 6000 ft lbs ought to do anything. So you can see that I'm bang along side Zero Drift about what is or isn't fun to shoot. At my age I got nothing to prove to anyone any more, anyway.

Remember that Weatherby wasn't much of a ballistician however much of a marketing genius he was. When it came time to do the 'biggest and baddest' he just looked around for the biggest case he could find. It happened to be the .416 Rigby. Since he had managed to convince the gullible that the belt was essential in a "hot" cartridge, he added one and his signiture sexybutt shoulder and necked it down to .375 and up to .458. So what you end up with is an overloaded .450 Rigby with a useless belt. You can take any of the three and load them up to Weatherby levels, down to Rigby levels or stay in the middle with Dakota. I tend to prefer either the Dakota or the Rigby because you get another shot in the magazine and being a timorous type, that improves my outlook on life. In any case, they make pot roast out of a buffalo real fast.

Call Dakota Arms and have them send you a reloading data sheet for the 450 Dakota and then compare with the 460 Weatherby. 460 Weatherby reloading data are available in most reloading manuals. Good luck.

2500?

You guys are bumming me out. I haven't got my copy in front of me, but Jeff Cooper (in "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth", chapter titled Summa Cum Laude)has the Weatherby at (I believe) 2700 f.p.s. and the 460 G&A at 2400 f.p.s for 500 grain bullets, the latter from a 21" barrel.

Did Cooper get it wrong, or has the loading for the Weatherby cartridge just been reduced over time?

H. C.

[ 12-12-2002, 07:26: Message edited by: HenryC470 ]

Before the Truth In Advertising Laws, you could get away with murder, or in Weatherby's case, you could bend to laws of Physics. Roy was a �marketing� genius with lots of goofy ideas about building guns. Then came chronographs and spoiled the whole thing...

[ 12-12-2002, 08:05: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

H. C.

Weatherby use to calim 2700 f/s for the 460 with 500s. Now it is 2600 f/s.

Other ammo calims like the 270 with 130s at 3140 and the original 7mm Rem quoted ballistics of 150s at 3260, were both avchievable with max handloads all though the 3140 with the 270 is closer to the mark than the 3260 with the 7mm Rem.

I have owned two 460s. In both, using IMR 4350, ejector marks just start at 2600 and peak accuracy lasts to a bit over 2500.

I think 2600 would be there with a double base powder of appropriate burning rate. Perhaps Reloader 19.

But alas, not 2700 f/s.

Mike

Thanks for the info guys !!
I will admit that i have a psychological diagnosis that claims 2700 fps for a 500 grainer and not less ! I think my new .460 with a lothar walter barrel measuring 26 ", will get me a bit over 2600 fps with 500 grainers,,and imr-4350,4320 or vvn-550. 2600 is more realistically,,and will sure hit hard enough !!

For handloaders, using the .458 bullets with all the possible loadings, the choice between 460 Wea and 450 Dak is a wash. Where I think the effort and money should be concentrated is on the action and rifle. Nix to the Wea for DG hunting as I don't like the 55 deg bolt swing, stock, and safety. The Dakota is a superb rifle IMHO as the action is CF based on M70 aaction with the 3 position safety and everything functions like silk. Of course, other custom rifles in 450 Ack, etc. can be built which function as well, but why reinvent the wheel.
I should add I have a 460 Wea, which is very accurate, but use it as a tune-up rifle as ammo is so cheap as everyone seems to be selling the rifle and ammo.

Pers,
If you can't get those last few fps you crave, there's a product on the market called Gun Juice that will dry lube and slicken up the barrel to increase the velocity to the utmost. It also rustproofs and increases accuracy. I use it to get to "sensible" velocities with less powder and lower pressure . . . and to decrease group size. If you can't find it on the net (I've never looked) shoot me an email and I'll put you in contact with them.