Hi all,

I recently bought a Model 70 in 416 remington magnum off an auction on GunAuction.com (the new Auction Arms site).

It's a New Haven gun and someone chopped the barrel to 20". No problem there as it is easier to maneuver in the brush.

The problem is that I have been reloading for it and the thing is just hammering me. I can do about 5 shots before I am done for the day.

I have owned a 404 Jeffery before and the recoil from it was like a big push. This 416 is like a punch to the shoulder.

What am I doing wrong? I expected recoil, but not like this.

Here's a link to a youtube video of me shooting it:
Shooting the 416

Would a 416 Rigby recoil like this?

How does the length of pull on your .404 compare to the .416? You look like a pretty tall guy and it would seem the LOP may be too short. Also have you tried to raise those sticks up so you're not leaning so far forward into the rifle? When I shoot like that off of sticks, I tend to get hammered too and I am 6'4" so it's tough to get the sticks up high enough and still be stable.

-John

How are you loading your 416? I found that Rel 15 made for the least felt recoil. BLC-2 was the worst.

There is a noticeable difference in recoil between the Win action and the Remington action. Don't know why but just guessing, stock design. I started off with a Win 70 in .416 Rem. That thing beat the snot out of me. Now it could just be that I got used to the Recoil but the Remington that I picked up just doesn't kick as hard with the same loads. You could also try Varget for your loads. RL15 and Varget would be my 2 choices.

Its just your imagination.

I sold the 404 a few years ago. It was a CZ550. The LOP was about 14 inches.

I shot a 505 Gibbs at a big bore shoot in Houston a few years ago. it was on a Granite Mountain action. That thing was a BIG push.

I am using RE15. Can't remember how much, but it is out of the Hornady reloading book and is at the low end.

I would suggest a fitted stock with one of the high end recoil pads.
A stock that fits you goes a long way towards reducing felt recoil. As an example, I used to have a push feed M70 in -06 that weighed about 9 1/4 lbs. I now have a M700 -06 with a custom fitted stock that weighs just over 7 lbs. With the same loads the rifle with the fitted stock is substantially more comfortable to shoot. When I got my 375 M70 I took it back to the same smith and had him duplicate the stock.

Stock must be too short for you, eh?
Just put a slip-on pad on it for T-shirt shooting.
Take the pad off if wearing a heavy winter coat.
Works for me.

Can't see where that thing is on your shoulder. I assume that it was solidly held into your shoulder. Fairly good recoil pad? I found with my .416 Rigby (which should be slightly worse)that recoil was a bit too much until I got the weight of rifle, scope mounts (heavy CZ) and scope up to 10.5 pounds. Then it was OK. There are also recoil pads of recycled jelly or something that you can put into your vest or jacket or T-shirt (they hang from a piece of velcro). They help. Biggest thing, assuming you are holding properly, is that 10.5 pounds. At least that's how it seemed to me.

A .416 recoils sharply, so shoot it less or get a safe reduced load for practice. A PAST pad is excellent for the limited use of fully loaded cartridges. A lesser recoiling rifle is great for practice, saves money, and eliminates the trauma of heavy recoil. I use a .22 LR.

I had McMillan make a stock to my specs using the directions on some website. I ended up with a LOP about 3/4" longer than I expected. After the 6 month wait I bolted it to my .416 Remington barreled Montana action and was pleasantly surprised at the lack of recoil, about like a 12ga with heavy field loads. I'm sure the Deccelerator recoil pad helps but fit seems to be pretty important.

You look to be a pretty good sized guy in the video, I'd second the suggestion that you work on fitting the gun to you.

Lots of good advise here.

I had the same problem. My 416 Rem just bruised the hell out of me. Rebarreled it to 404 Jeffery and it's a pussycat compared to the 416.

Good luck!

Also bring the legs of the shooting sticks up so your stance is more straight up and down let your upper body roll back like your wast is a hinge

I shoot a fair bit with big bores, 2 things effect recoil a lot, fit is first and the recoil pad is second.
It looks like you are 'crawling' on the stock, which means it is too short for you. When you're all hunched up like that all of the recoil is being absorbed by your shoulder before the rest of your body can react and roll with the punch. You can overcome this by standing up straighter and taller without hunching over the rifle and extending your sticks until the sight is level with your eye before shouldering the rifle, then adjust it down a wee bit at a time until it feels good whennyou squeeze one off.
If this doesn't help enough, try fitting a Decelerator, they really take the sting out of sharp recoil. I have one fitted to my Model 70 in 375 Weatherby due to the sharpness in a fairly light rifle and it is quite comfortable to shoot.
Hope this helps, uncomfortable recoil is not pleasant and takes the fun out of shooting.

Cheers.

es Stock fit is the go. My 11lb CZ550 in 375H&H kicks a lot worse than my 7.5lb Rem 700 in 375H&H.

PAST pad, square up and stand up to the sticks, and put shootaway on ignore. .375 Wby in Brno hogback fits me, but f-i-l's Model 70 .375 H&H hurt! Trigger position banged my fingers and the LOP was wrong for me. You look like "average" build most factory stocks are built for, so I think technique/shooting discipline is your friend. Keep your cheek welded to the stock until recoil is done, and see if you can't grab sticks and forehand "all together" further forward on the fore-end. In the video where you placed the butt on your shoulder looks like it is all too low (to me). For bench shooting, place two seats atop the bench and sandbag/rest there so you can take the recoil standing up like with sticks.

2 cents

A very strong cheek weld can enhance the recoil sensation considerably as your head gets a full dose of recoil impulse.

I am not recoil sensitive, but not recoil impervious as some here seem to be I really do prefer a standing rest and a loose cheek weld rather than a strong one.

The PAST pads work well if your shoulder is being abused.

.416 Rem mags have been known to have some recoil for mere mortals. Hang in there, all will be fine. When shooting such arms such as this one it's just to be expected I would guess. Or just get a bigger bore and then shooting the .416 will seem not that harsh.
Good luck and good shooting.

I thought of one other technique that helped me also. Grip the forearm strong so your hand doesn't slide under recoil and now your rifle will weigh it's weight plus the weight of your arm and dampen the recoil some too.

Get a D'Arcy Echols composite stock, magnum fill, and put your 416 in it. Make sure the LOP is correct for you, put a Pachmayer Decelerator pad on it.

I have had done this to a 416RM and a 458WM M70 and the reduction in perceived recoil over the factory wood stock was significant. Mr. Echols' stock will tame the beast.

Yeah, 416s kick. If you can shoot 5 ACCURATE shots in the field, you have no problem. Yes, Rigby will kick the same in the same rifle; you can' t disobey laws of physics.
I see from your vid that you are leaning into the rifle, and you offer a lot of resistance to the recoil. If you stand up straight and let it push you a bit, it won't hurt as much. I have seen small light guys shoot things that hurt more solid fellas for that reason. Wear a jacket.

My M 70 416 Rem Mag has a mercury tube in the stock along with a Decelerator, all helps tame the beast.
I found the recoil of the 416 more objectionable than my 470.

I guess I'll throw in my two cents worth also. I agree with others on the stance shown in the vid. I think you're bending over too much and leaning into it. I'd want to be standing up straighter. I guess that's caused by the height of the sticks being too short.

Speaking of which, I'd try it without the sticks, for a comparison. I'm going to guess it won't feel as bad.

And I can't tell about your hold, but I'd let the sticks touch as little as possible and take as much of it as you can yourself, if you know what I mean. I'd do a death grip with both hands and just barely touch the sticks and pull the stock hard into your shoulder and I believe you'll feel less recoil. Like I said, I'd try it again that way with no sticks at all and see if any different.

I'd also make sure the large muffs are not altering how the gun's contacting your face or where your cheek is touching the stock. You might try it with simple ear plugs instead of muffs - providing that it's safe from a hearing standpoint.

I also couldn't tell what kind of recoil pad on the gun, or what kind if any recoil pad you're wearing. Those are two more items to look at. For an ersatz recoil pad, just take out your wallet and put it between stock and shoulder.

Otherwise what Jim just said on recoil reducers sounds excellent advice. And incidentally, my custom Mauser 416 Rem has the Decel version, but not the mercury, and it's tolerable.

One other thing. I think a longer barrel lessens the recoil a bit. So, if you just can't tolerate it as is, a trade for 24 or 26 could probably be done, if you want to look at that.

I hope this helps a bit...

I used to not think too much about this stock fit issue, I had a Sako 338 Win Mag in their laminated stock that just whopped on me even though it was heavy rifle.

When I first unboxed my Winchester M70 416 and shot it I was expecting to need the mercury reducers. Right away I was surprised that is was substantially better than my 375 and way better than the 338.

There is hole in my hunting rifle line-up now as I just skip from the Win M70 Laredo in 7mm Mag right over to the 416. My 416 still wears it wood stock but I have been seriously thinking that I will get the D Arcy Echols stock on mine but I haven't seen a magnum version for sale in quite a while.

After I looked much more carefully at the rifles I shoot more accurately I found that they had the smaller wrists and the straighter stocks, So I went more to that.

I don't know how you feel about it but there are some excellent brakes out there too. I don't have any but I have shot some of them and they do reduce recoil. I may add one to mine when the stock work is done. But I will use a cap instead when hunting with it.

Install recoil reducer in stock as well as a decelerator recoil pad. That should help a lot.

Consider a McMillan stock in the Sako "Hunter" style. It is very ergonomic. You can also get it with a "416" fill. Accuflite Sports in pennsylvania usually has them in stock. I have one on my Sako in 416 Rem Mag. McMillan also inlets the stock for Winchester, Remington, and Ruger actions. You can also add a mercury and/or hydraulic recoil reduction system in that stock.

I have a mercury compensator in my straight-stocked .375 Ruger BLR ( rebarrelled from .300 Win mag). My wife, 5'2" tall, can shoot it without discomfort, she's taken a fair amt. of game with it.

The video doesn't show the stock design or how the rifle fits you and both are important factors in felt recoil so you need to check both.

A good, PROPERLY FITTED mercury tube recoil arrestor will do a lot to help as well but make sure it is properly fitted by someone who knows what they're doing. That means the mercury runs uphill as the rifle recoils.

I dropped mine in a McM stock that actually dropped the weight by 1/2# but is much nicer to shoot. I also load 400's to 2250 fps given the effectiveness of the NE rounds running there and I expect all will be good (mine built for buffalo hunts). I see no need to run 400's at 2400 fps and will likely play with the 350 gr TSX when I get back home.

^^^

A very good looking rifle and set up Boxhead.

Would you please share by posting or by PM which Mc stock that is and as well what recoil pad that is . I use the Talley scope mounts and bases too. Thanks.

For one thing, I see the 404 being loaded to yesterdays velocity of a 400 gr. bullet at 2100 or 2200 FPS, and thats fine an recoil is much less than a factory 416 Rem much less a handload, and it is still the equal of a 450-400 and nobody argues the 450-400 isn't enough gun, and that would be the load that made the 404 famous..A 416 so loaded would be fine on anything.

However, on the other hand in a good Mauser or mod 70 it is easy to get some awesome velocity with a 400 gr. bullet in a .404..A max load of 95 grs. of IMR 4831 will get you beyond 2500 by a good deal and at rather moderate but close to max pressure...

I shoot my 404 and have for years with 91 to 93 grs. IMR-4831 for 2350 to 2400 plus FPS depending on the gun, barrel length and so fourth...

A .416 will get 2400 FPS without much problem contrary to some I have read.

Recoil of my .404 is equal or more than my .416 Rem. depending on the load, but for all intensive purposes the two calibers are balistically the same and therefore recoil the same, so your problem is elsewhere keeping in mind that both calibers have substantial recoil, and in order to shoot them one has to shoot them lets say at least often, a lay off of big bore shooting of say a winter can mean you have to start over to re develope your ability to withstand such recoil...

As much as I have shot big bores my whole life, after my recent hand injury and a 18 month lay off, I find the 404, 416 and even my old 375 H&H pretty abusive in every respect and am having a time getting back to shooting them again..I will, but when I have no clue, so I shoot a few rounds daily and hope for the best.

It can be a stocking problem and fit all factory stocks can produce negative results..A custom stock can make a difference but to what degree is different from shooter to shooter, some guys can shoot a big bore with a mop handle tied to it...

What bullet are you shooting? My original 375H&H would kick like the dickens when loaded with 300gr Partitions but tamed right down with 300gr Swifts and TSX's. I can't remember any other rifle I own to have that kind of difference just between bullets.

I have never noticed any difference between makes of bullets weighing the same with the same load...I have shot about every bullet available in the 375, 416 and 404..I will say that some days one is more concious of recoil than others and thats a fact...

Ray,
I would generally agree that equal weight bullet with the same approx load would recoil about the same. However, the recoil was definitely different with the Nosler Partition compared to the other bullets I tried in this particular rifle. I looked earlier and found a partial box of those old loads and the other load with Barnes X bullets. The partitions were loaded with a max load of IMR4831 and the X bullets were loaded with a max load of RL15. The velocity of both was about 2500fps. I would guess that it's like the difference between my RL15 load for my 470NE compared to the IMR4831 load. The felt recoil is less with the RL15 but the 500gr bullets are going the same velocity with both loads. I have set up loads for several 375's, 416's and 458"s over the years but this particular one had enough difference to remember.

Thanks for all the replies I have been getting.

Right now I am on shift work and will probably not get to shoot again for another month.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The video doesn't show the stock design or how the rifle fits you and both are important factors in felt recoil so you need to check both.

A good, PROPERLY FITTED mercury tube recoil arrestor will do a lot to help as well but make sure it is properly fitted by someone who knows what they're doing. That means the mercury runs uphill as the rifle recoils.

I would look at other recoil arrestors. Mecury and aluminium do not mix. If flying with one of the mercury arrestors in your rifle and it is discoverd this is the case the rifle will not be allowed on the aircraft.

Remember more and more checked baggage is being X-rayed and the tube will show up. Questions may then be asked.

Just a heads up.

Try speer 350 grain magtips at 2400 fps .I use reloader,15 76
grains. I HAVE SHOT 150 OF THESE I' A DAY. i shoot standing off a millions cratère on the bench with 60 poing bill back and two past passe. ITS A POWERFUL LOAD FUN TO SHOOT! THAT CHEEPPIECE SUCKS!

Is the stock the right length, and does the butt of the stock have the correct heel/toe pitch? Also I'd recommend a Kick-Eez 1 3/8" pad Borwnels item no# 440-501-112WB, it really tamed my 416 down.

I had a New Haven 375H&H and it was a pig to shoot for me. Heavy and belted me. I sold it and had my 270 converted to 375H&H with a modified Echols stock. No problems and is nice to shoot. I have a lighter H&H 375H&H (8lbs 2oz) that is really sweet to shoot as it fits me fine.

Good luck. Chris

An American factory stock is made for the "average American man" who was 5'9" tall last I checked, and weighed something like 175lbs. If your physique is different you will need to alter the stock dimensions. If you are tall, one of the relatively cheap rubber slip on pads with both offer some additional cushioning and provide the added length you need. A good place to start.

Also, if you want to maximize recoil, lean into the rifle, if you want to minimize, as others have noted, shoot with your torso as vertical as possible, so you flex to absorb recoil. This is why heavy recoiling rifles are best shot off of standing benches for regulation or sighting in, etc. Sticks are ok to shoot, but they need to be tall enough so that you are standing nearly vertically when you shoot. As another poster suggested, try shooting without sticks to see how recoil is.

A strap on recoil pad will spread recoil across more area on your shoulder, and usually reduce felt recoil, they are worth the $'s, imo. I like the shotgun style rather than the rifle style, it interferes with a normal mount less, since it is thinner but wider and longer. I start my recoil desensitization program using one, but end without one.

FWIW, as Ray wrote, it takes some time and effort to desensitize yourself to recoil. If I have lain off the big rifles for a while it takes me about a month of work to get back into it. I start by reminding myself that the rifle won't hurt me, though it may be unpleasant to shoot at first. Then I shoot maybe four rounds. Give it three days and shoot maybe six rounds, another two or three days and shoot ten rounds... By months end I can shoot 20 or more.

Also as Ray noted, some days you feel the recoil more than other days. If you're shooting on one of those days where you're noticing it more than usual, quit early.

Shooting at paper you will feel much more recoil than shooting at some animate target, especially game. If your environment allows, shooting at balloons rolling along the ground in the breeze will produce a heck of a lot less felt recoil than at a stationary paper target. The reason id focus. You will be focused harder on the target and notice the recoil less, a lot less. When I shoot game - no recoil pad, no muffs, no plugs, with my heavy kickers I notice just enough recoil and sound to know the rifle fired. At the range with a strap on recoil pad, muffs and plugs the report is substantial and recoil great, but after working into it, tolerable. Big difference, just because of the intense focus on the game.

Lastly, try plugs and muffs. It is amazing how much muzzle blast adds to perceived recoil. Your short barrel 416 will have plenty of muzzle blast, especially with factory fodder optimized for a 24" barrel. You can load to reduce muzzle blast in a short barrel rifle by using a powder on the faster burning side of suitable powders for the cartridge.

JPK