If you have a look at my gun it looks like Mr Osborne has decorated the top of the breech to hide a name or make of the firearm.

Any ideas as to what it used to be?

The rifle was little used and in immaculate condition when it was given to me. I had to change the original stock which was damaged and could only afford to put a laminated stock onto it. Some of the browning has now worn off after much carrying in the field.

Mauser banner?

On many english made mausers it is fairly common for the front ring to be given the matte or stippled treatment.

Just from the photo the bolt looks like a straight military mauser handle that was bent down.

I would hazard a guess that your .404 was made on a surplus military action. The stipple/matte on the front ring might have been done to cover the crest of its previous government owner...

quote:

Any ideas as to what it used to be?

In another life? A sofa? Maybe a bicycle? Hard to tell.

Will, I think its nap time again!!!

The FN Colombian ex mil 98 was one that had the front ring altered with the notch when they were converted to 30-06 after the end of WW11.

Von Gruff.

Ditto what Van Gruff said.

Looks like a commercial Oberndorf bolt handle to me. What does the left side of the front ring say?
How about the left receiver wall?
Could be an action from a German guild gun. Being a 404 Jeff, and the rear bridge does not apear to be altered, the notch in the front ring may have been added when the action was converted for the 3.6" 404.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
The FN Colombian ex mil 98 was one that had the front ring altered with the notch when they were converted to 30-06 after the end of WW11.

Von Gruff.

+1

Here is my Pre 1912 Simson in 9.3X62


The front ring is stippled but now covered by the scope base. The left side of the action is also blanks. It was either a commercial action with no markings or a military action with the markings removed. My bolt was also bent over like a military bolt & have had it straightened and re welded to clear the scope.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Any ideas as to what it used to be?

In another life? A sofa? Maybe a bicycle? Hard to tell.

The reason I asked Will was because a lot of custom gun makers modified or customized other makes of guns and called them their own. No one I have met can identify the front breech to barrel style.

On the side of the breech is a crown sitting on a V. Under that another crown symbol then 4,2 gr G.B.P. And under that yet another crown symbol N st.m.G

I presume the other markings on the barrel are proof marks?

Yes they are the proof marks just like in my rifle. The GBP is a German abbreviation for smokeless powder of 4.2 grams (about 60 grains) & N st mg is for jacketed bullet. You can contact the German gun collectors' association (inquiries@germanguns.com - http://www.germanguns.com/ go to the Questions & Answers section - they are really helpful people) and get the proof info to date your rifle. Most German rifles of that era were made in Shul where more than 200 smaller makers thrived. Pre 1912 is a easy threshold to identify from proof marks and new laws starting from 1912.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Yes they are the proof marks just like in my rifle. The GBP is a German abbreviation for smokeless powder of 4.2 grams (about 60 grains) & N st mg is for jacketed bullet. You can contact the German gun collectors' association (inquiries@germanguns.com - http://www.germanguns.com/ go to the Questions & Answers section - they are really helpful people) and get the proof info to date your rifle. Most German rifles of that era were made in Shul where more than 200 smaller makers thrived. Pre 1912 is a easy threshold to identify from proof marks and new laws starting from 1912.

Thanks. Very interesting.

The action/bolt is probably pre-WWI commercial Oberndorf. I have an early 404 built on a similar standard length Oberndorf action with notch in stippled receiver ring.



Nakihunter's Simpson is most likely built on a commercial standard length Oberndorf too.

FN Columbian is correct as stated in two above posts. The notch is to be able to seat those long pointed military bullets with a stripper clip. It is a great action. Shame you don't re-stock it..Would you consider selling the gun? I would like to restock it in an original type stock.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
The action/bolt is probably pre-WWI commercial Oberndorf. I have an early 404 built on a similar standard length Oberndorf action with notch in stippled receiver ring.



Nakihunter's Simpson is most likely built on a commercial standard length Oberndorf too.

That is it. Well done chaps I am impressed and you know your stuff.

Fairgame:

Commercial Oberndorf actions sent to other makers often had two sets of serial nubers on them. The original German numbers and proof marks and perhaps and additional set from Rigby and others for example. The German set was often below the woodwork.

According to Jon Speed's book, "Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles", German serial numbers for the production year 1905 begin with 9050. Pre WWI production numbers end with around number 82231.

Production then started up after WWI with 82309 and continued up to and including 1944. It looks like production ended with 126417 in 1944.

Look for a set of numbers in this range. If you find them and would like a better guess as to production date, feel free to PM me and I will look it up and give you an approximate year of production.

A piece of history that you own and can use is rewarding.

Regards,

RCG

My 404 has German & British serial numbers and proofs, dating it 1912.

This is not a Mauser Sporting action, so Speeds book and it's numbers are not applicable. If it were a Mauser sporting rifle it would have German civilian Proof marks ie BUG or BUGN

This is a military action and it wears British Nitro proofs
( V over crown) which it should if it's a Brit gun in combination with typical German military markings for smokeless powder and for steel jacketed bullets ( St M G )

I have recently acquired a German trade Mauser, DWM actioned 404 Jeffery with in similar format, complete with the relief slot in the rear of the front bridge.

Does that not imply the Germans were making rifles in .404 Jeffery?

Bill:

Yes they did ! First for the British trade and around 1926 for "themselves". Of the most desirable 404's are the Mauser Sporting Rifles Type A that they built for the German market, they were not labelled as 404 though but 10,75 x73. The barrel profiles and fitments are pure Mauser and not the typical style we see on the Jeffery. The 404 on the inside cover of Speeds book is one of casey Lewis's Mauser 404's.... they are by far the most "Mauser" of all the genuine Mausers !

They are distinctly different rifles in Style ! From 1926 we also see that the Germans also load and proof with smokeless which they did not do before then.

'reddy375' here on AR bought one of ? the type A's in 404 that is featured in Speed's book @ Cabelas 6 or 7 years ago. Saw it when we were in the same camp one time. Don't know whether it was marked 404 J or metric. A thing of beauty but too heavy for me.

Nobody including Speed has been able to tell me exactly what I have. Does not look like a military action to me, especially the bolt. Here's some more pics:














(Fairgame, not trying to hijack, just shed light.)

Well whatever that rifle is, it is very cool!

fla3006

A german made gun that was sold to the UK and retailed there ?

When did Rigby win and lose the Mauser exclusive supply contract ?

Rigby had the Mauser supply contract from 1898-1912. Speed thinks my rifle was made in Germany and retailed by someone in Great Britain, does not have any famous names on it other than the unusual "Mauser" stamp on the side. At any rate, I wish it could talk, has been around the block a time or two.

quote:

Originally posted by fla3006:
Rigby had the Mauser supply contract from 1898-1912. Speed thinks my rifle was made in Germany and retailed by someone in Great Britain, does not have any famous names on it other than the unusual "Mauser" stamp on the side.

I'm no expert on Mausers but the fact it being 1912 which is when I thought Rigby lost the exclusivity
and that it has a "Germanic" feel or look to it plus English proof marks is why I said made in full in Germany and just sold in the UK.

.

This is a very early gun !

here are the reasons why:

1. The bullet weight and StMG in line is German and dates before 1912, after 1912 the position of the bullet weight is under the StMG.

2. The Crown with a N is German for Nitro proof
3. The Crown over V is British and it is used from 1904 to 1925.

4. Now we know that Jeffery only launched their 404 in 1904 so this gun lies somewhere between 1904 and 1912.

5. The last indicator is the use of the caliber designation 404 Nitro Express, that is also very old in that the very first official designation for this cartridge was Eley's 404 Nitro Express and not 404 jeffery

6. The gun was also built in England and the reason why I say this this is if it were built in Germany it would have been marked as foreign built and this would be stamped on the gun.

Alf
I'd like to see some more photos if possible including a full photo of the gun.

mmmmm, interesting, but if the rifle was not built in Germany,
why does it have German proof marks.


What dates were "Not English Made" or whatever it is put on the guns ?

The "Eley's 404 Nitro Express" could easily have been added to the barrel at the final stage but I agree with you re the wording and when it was used.

How about

Made in full in Germany, finished in the UK ?
Made in Germany, barreled in the UK ? (Not sure if German proof marks are on the barrel).

.

So, German proofs all over it.

German looking stock ??? (Any comments ?)


So what is the verdict ?


I'll guess made in Germany, reproofed and retailed in the UK.

.

probably so, I'm no expert either.

I'm no expert but proof marks are proof marks.

Then comes style, look etc etc.

.

Proofs are not just proofs !

They tell a story ! They help unravel the mystry of old guns, they are as important as the style itself !

What do we see on this gun:

Two sets of serial numbers !

There is the "german number" and then there is the English number. ( 30636)

The German number is the 3725 number, we see the last 3 digits repeated everywhere, on the barrel ( 275) on the bolt root and on the underside of the action. Sometimes also in the barrel channel of the stock and on the safety wing


On the bolt root we have two distinct sets of proofs.

Crown over V is London proof house Inspection mark , it is an inpection mark that was applied after the gun was proofed. Started in 1672 and this finally dropped in the 1950's We see the mark of the London Proof House on the barrel as well. ( Lion over the script)

On the bolt root we also see two early Suhl marks. The crown with the cross on top, that is the Suhl Inspection mark and the crown over the N, that is the Suhl Nitro proof, these two marks show that the action was proofed after April of 1912.

On the side of the action front bridge:

Crown with the V:
London Proof House inspection mark.

Under that 4.3 gram GBP on a line and under the line StMG This is German 1891 - 1912

it means 4.3 gram of rifle smokeless over a specific steel jacket bullet giving a pressure of 58,800 psi max. for whatever that action was first built ! That means about 66 gr of smokeless flake powder. This interesting because The Germans only started proving the 404 using German flake around 1926 ! Prior to this they used British stick nitro ammo !

On the barrel we see British marks:

The lion over script: London Proof House mark.
Crown over V : London Proof House Inspection mark.
Crown over P London Proof house Proof mark

hand holding the sword over NP is the nitro proof and the proof load is listed 60 gr of Cordite.

I will correct myself this is a German Gun, the action is likely a Suhl Mauser, the barrel obviously Krupp, Though this is a German gun, likely a Suhl built rifle it had to be fitted and proofed in England before 1925 to circumvent the application of the mark. " Not English make" The "Not English make" mark was dropped in 1925.

As to when this was made we can unravel the puzzle by looking at when certain proofs were used and when not. My impression is that this likely is an early gun, my guess around 1912 based on the combination of proofs.

Whatever the pedigree it is a lovely piece, though battered from use, this turns me on more than any new custom riifle !

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Proofs are not just proofs !

They tell a story ! They help unravel the mystry of old guns, they are as important as the style itself !

That's what I meant.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Whatever the pedigree it is a lovely piece, though battered from use, this turns me on more than any new custom riifle !

I agree.

.

Alf, what do you think the "Mauser" stamp on the side refers to?

The Mauser logo is interesting ! It may have been put on by the finnishers of this gun.

It does not look anything like any of the commonly used Oberndorf or even German Fonts.

My feeling is that it's aftermarket and it may be so as the British trade commonly made distinction between rifles built on Mauser actions vs others.

In the pics all of the German marks are not clearly shown on the barrel only the British ones but again there is a repeat of the Suhl inspection marks and the Suhl Nitro Proof , then there appears to be the metric designations for land and groove..... ie see a 10.2 I think, it's not clear.... that is German and Typical.

The typical land groove and twist designations for the 404 in metric were 10.45 , 10.75, and 420

And then there is the window in the front bridge stippling, where the STmG and proof load is placed, the scroll border is not Oberndorf, theirs and they do the same treatment was very specific and "typical" if found on a gun!

My guess from its styling is that it was originally a 10.75 x68 probably intended for sale into one of the colonies of East Africa. There was a time Germany was selling a lot of those both through English "makers" and through shops in German East Africa. That pretty much ended completely with Germany's loser status at the end of world War I. It had, of course already diminished considerably with the introduction of the .404 Jeffery (10.75x73mm).

Looks as if someone has had a go at removing the barrel at some stage, stilson spanner marks on the barrel and vise marks on the receiver? Hard to say if barrel removal attempt was successful though as joint looks untouched and timing mark still perfectly aligned.

Interesting specimen and would agree with Alberta, most likely was chambered for the 10.75x68 originally.

So why is it marked Eley 404 Nitro Express on the top of the barrel as shown in the picture?