Having read through the thread Lott versus WinMag, I wonder how only one person talked about using lighter bullets in the WinMag. The various.450 NE cartridges have always had a good reputation with 480 grains bullets, why 500 in the WinMag? I know it was intended to offer same ballistics as the .470NE, but A-square loaded it with 465 grs bullets and it sounds good to me. Finn Aagaard thoght highly of that solution. Yet it never was a hit, was it? How come? Seems to me a 100 f/s more will impress a buff more than 20 grains extra?

Woodleigh make a 480 gr .458 cal bullet which would suit the win mag better than the 500 gr bullets IMHO.

I used 450 grain bullets. Seemed to bring my winmag up to where it did a fine job on Buffalo and elephant.
Dean

I have noticed some people using 450 gn Barnes bullets on Buff and elephants. I supose if they hold together well enough ,the Barnes 450 TSX and banded solids would be a little flatter shooter. I,m no guru on this ,what do those who have actualy shot buff and elephant think?

I used the 450grain barnes supersolid on my elephant. Worked fine looks like it could be reloaded.
The buffalo was hit with a barnes 450 grain xbullet up the backside penatrated to the back of the lungs. finished him with a solid to the shoulder. The xbullet looks like an advertisement and the solid looks new.
Dean

450 grains should be the lightest one should go for maximum thumping power in the 458WM. Since the 458WM will actually go 2200 and better depending on the load, it makes up for the lack of powder capacity in the short case. There ain't no flies buzzing around when it is properly loaded with good and modern bullets and powders.

It depends on your application.

400 gr bullets seem to give you almost identical performance as a 400 gr .416 Rigby/Remington. You loose a hiccup of sectional density over the .416 at equal weights. But you're still going to get 2400 fps, which isn't great, but is still rather flatter than the 2100 fps range of 500gr slugs. You can also find projectiles on the market designed for this application -- which is the most practical part of the question. There are a number of bullet manufacturers that design their 400gr bullets to start expanding at 1900 fps, and to retain 80% of their weight up to around 2400fps (this is obviously not .45/70 fodder). The .458 win is also flexible enough to download to .45/70 velocities for CX2 and CX3 game.

However, I don't think you'll find 400gr solids; it isn't giving you the stopping power that 500gr slugs will give. And that's what most folks think of as the prime reason for the existance of the .458 win.

One thing that has struck me is that the ballistics that had been posted for 350gr loads were pretty poor. Federal dropped the load they offered.

While everyone says the load is far too powerful for anything (except brown bears) on the NA continent, it looks like there's no reason not to use it with 400 gr slugs if you feel like it, or by down-loading it to .45/70 energies.

Dan

I think that 450 grain monolithic brass or copper bullets in the .458 Win Mag or .458 Lott are fine & dandy. But I would not drop down to 400 grains for massive animals due to lack of sectional density. But a 400 grain North Fork, Woodleigh PP or Swift A-Frame would make a very fine plains game and lion bullet in a .458.

I don't really know as I have only used 500 gr. bullets and never had a problem but after reading Tonto post above, I would have concerns if my 450 gr. bullet penitrated to the "back of the lungs!!" A 500 gr. bullet will go on up into the neck or forward shoulder after punching "through the lungs" and whatever else it happens to hit...Sounds like to me the 450 gr. may lack a little penetration and SD based on his report...

It sounds like to me the 458 Win. crowd is trying to make a DGR out of the .458 because they don't trust it or have doubts about its ability???

Actually it is quit a nice round if simply loaded with 500 gr. bullets at 2100 FPS, and this seems to be do-able with a good handload and at decent pressure, or so I have been told.....

Ray
The 450 grain bullet that penatrated to the back of the lungs was a xbullet not a solid (not sure if that matters for your point)I was thinking a xbulet was more like a soft and felt a soft doesnt always go threw on a broadside shot so I didnt think it was bad to make it more that half way the long way. the 450gr solids blew right threw.
Dean

Do not discount 400gr .458 bullets on Cape Buff. You just need to push them a little....

400 grain HV in 458 Lott. - "The first buffalo below was taken with the 400 grain HV at 70 yards. He was grazing with his head down and dropped like a rock at the shot. The third and fourth buffalo were also taken with the 400 grain HV. "

Actually, one of my interests has been to explore its use in other hunting situations (north american game), where it is often described as "too much."

It can be treated like a .45/70. HOWEVER, the 400 gr bullets such as barnes original pointed soft points, or Woodleigh's 400gr PP SN's tend to be designed to expand at full-power charges, opening around 1800 fps, and holding together up to around 2400fps, though. They do not seem to be designed for heavy African game, though would likely punch through most of the larger north american animals with no effort (no such thing as failure for this caliber on this continent). It appears, though, that Gerard has evidence to the contrary -- at least for some 400gr projectiles HE's used.

The reason *I* got into this track was that I'd had a .458 when I was a kid, sold it, and recently bought another one for the fun of it. Partly, I wanted to play with it, experiment with the loads, see how it shot, look at the products available for atypical applications. I've found it to be a real joy to shoot, that it is very accurate, that it feels very nice to shoot off-hand, that I hit the target I'm aiming at. And I've decided to hunt with it this fall.

While I've picked up some solids to play with (yes, that gun shoots those very nicely, too), they are not legal for any game in my state (NY), they go through outrageously thick trees with no sweat, and they are the thin-skinned Remington solids that used to bust up before making it to the boiler room after going through a buffalo's shoulder... plinking fodder and no more. One of these years, I'd like to go to Africa to hunt buffalo with it. I figure to use something like Speer's African Grand Slam solids and softs. In any case, my hope is that, by the time I get there, I will have had lots and lots of experience shooting that gun, and will be very comfortable with it. It is obvious I am not rich enough to get my experience shooting cape buffalo with it... so I'd better get my experience at home. Of course, I've noticed all the complaints PH's have about shooters showing up with guns they cannot shoot, and who show up inappropriately prepared. I'd like a good hunt, so I want to be prepared (otherwise, its a waste of a lot of $'s).

Dan

For NA use, the 350 speer or hornacy can be loaded to 2400-2500 fps, thus making it plenty flat shooting out to 250 yds, and it those bullets are more then enough for all NA game. Recoil is on par with a 375 H&H, so you can shoot prone, squatting etc and ignore the recoil.

I built my recent 458 Lott for NA hunting, and will be using 350 and 400 gr bullets, they are more then enough for the task at hand.

Tonto,
that would probably make a difference..I stil think that I would stick to a 500 gr. bullet in the .458 for all my shooting, if I need a flatter shooting gun, I know where the get one! I have little use for any flat stubby bullet in any caliber and I would like for someone to quote me the difference in trajectory and velocity between the 400, 450 and 500 gr. bullets at out to 300 yeads. My book shows very little difference.

I,m taking my 458 Lott on a scrub bull hunt in a few weeks. I have already loaded the ammo which is 500gn woodleighs for the bulls. I have also loaded 30 rounds with 300 gn bullets to use on pigs once I have got the bulls. I often load up a pile of 300 gn bullets ,for pigs or other smaller game. I always take my 300 weatherby as well ,but it has helped a few times to have the 2nd gun on the hunt due to gun ,scope,ammo problems (Oh and leaving a bolt at home).
The 300gn bullets can be loaded up to 3000 fps in a 458 Lott and I have shot pigs with this load using 300gn Barnes. At close range at this velocity ,the Barnes lost all of its petals and looked like a short flat nose. It still penatrated all the way through the pig and into the sand bank.
Now adays I usualy load up cheap Taipan bullets to 2600 fps to use on pigs or other smaller game.