I'm sending off a copy of a Jack Lott article to Casey and DaggaRon about the comparative strength of double rifle actions. I don't know if Lott is the ultimate authority, but he is quite enthusiastic about the strength and silence of underhammer doubles. He says "The screw grip sidehammer action on the other hand, is a much stronger proposition than any hammerless action, because the barrels are clampled down tightly to the action bar's 'water table' so that no gap occurs at the instant of firing. This not only eliminates the springing of the action bar and bolts, as with hammerless guns, but on firing, all elements of action and barrels hold tightly together as if a unit."

Do other published experts on doubles hold the same opinion as Lott? Does anybody out there shoot a Jones underlever Nitro express? Most I see are old Black Powder expresses. Bob

I recall reading essentially the same thing in a Michael McIntosh book. The reason given for the Jone's underlever being discontinued was speed. Though supposedly stronger, it is supposed to be much slower to operate, than the currently used top-lever, and it was felt that the additional strength was not critical.

I would have to agree with loud-n-boomer. I have operated an 8 bore with the Jones underlever. It is a strong bolting system, which does not deflect it's bolting off it's bites when fired like the Purdey bolting system does does.

That said, it is clumsy, awkward, cumbersome, and slow compared to a snap action (push forward underlever like the Ruger No1) or the top lever. My personal favorite is the underlever snap action for a DG double rifle. If I am looking at the arse end of several hundred grains of BP, I say give me a Jones underlever, PLEASE!

I would classify it as the "Brick Shithouse" of double rifle bolting systems.

TEG

Pecos45, you are simply a troll and that is all there is to it. I have read your meaningless posts all over this site. You talk a lot, point fingers of accusation, and say NOTHING.

I was playing with a Jones underlever double rifle before most of the members of this forum knew what a double rifle was! I think you are just jealous because you could not afford to own even an old beat up 1880's double rifle with a Jones underlever lock. Spare me the statements out he big bad military anti-tank rifles you have shot. Come back to the hunting forums when you have experience with the hunting rifles.

To me you are just like RAB (Daggaron, he changed his name from RAB after he had learned about guns by asking all kinds of beginner's questions on this site), Robgunbuilder, and several others here. You post to show the world you are a genius. The information you post as gospel you got from the very people you now call idiots and liars. I have posted here for years. I know most if not all the old timers. You call people all kinds of vile crap if they explain to you the err of you ways. Kiss off. The Gentleman that started this thread I think wanted to learn something, or at least here from the voices of experience. Obviously, this is not you, or you would be discussing the Jones underlever bolting and not liabling me. I shared my limited experience with this system. I freely admit I have only seem one 8 bore and a handful of old shotguns with this bolting system.

The advantages of the mechanics of the Jones bolting system over the Purdey are obvious to anyone familiar with both the Jones and the Purdey. I have much more experience with the Purdey bolting system though. Mechanics is mechanics, though. The Purdey is the marriage of cantilevered beams, which separate from each other during firing (bites on barrel lumps which deflect away from action, while the bolts are in the action deflecting away from the barrel lumps). The Jones bolting is captured by the bites in the barrel lump. The bolting cannot separate from the lump bites, no way no how. This is simply the mechanics of these two bolting systems. Strength of the material is a different arguement, entirely. I assure everyone, if both the Jones and the Purdey bolting systems were made of the same material (Duralloy for instance which is 4140 Rc35) the Jones bolting system would be stronger and more durable. Hands down. Compared to the top lever Purdey bolted action the bottom lever Jones bolted rifle is a cumbersome, awkward beast! The Purdey system will work, does work, and is more ergonomic. That is the reason, IMHO that the Purdey thrived while the Jones declined. The Purdey just wears out a lot faster.

TEG

Bobc,
Thanks, I got it. Very kind of you. I will see what it says.

Hey Axel, you need some help there buddy. Seriously man. You've really got some personal issues that need to be addressed. I dont know you personally of course but your actions on this forum can only lead myself or anybody else to conclude that you really need to be psychologically evaluated. I'm sure there's a professional in your area that can listen to you. Everythings gonna be OK Axel. Just call the nice psychiatrist. He will understand.

Mr 331,

I must truly frighten you if you post with such a name. I am not Axel. Do you understand this?

It amazes me the volume of personal attack posts on these forums anymore. People have nothing constructive to add, but they can run their fingers off liabling others.

I suggest, that you find a good church and learn about what the good book has to say. You should pay close attention to what is has to say about how to treat others! Just MHO.

TEG

PS I am an older American. I call it as I sees it! I am not now, nor have I ever, been politically correct! If that bothers your sensitive Canadian ears I ain't sorry. I got screwed around with, by your BC customs every fall and spring when I was a kid 25 years ago. They were paranoid, that we "evil" Americans, were sneaking rifles into Canada to hunt with. At that time it was ILLEGAL. We had to RENT our guns from local (that is Canadian) outfitters! Canada has a great many SORRY ass tax laws, and is paranoid about guns and Americans in general! Now kiss off! Oops, I better go to church tomorrow myself. Nothing personal, by the way, I am only venting! There is no bigger pain in the ass, than having you truck strip searched just because you are going to Vancouver for a Saturday!

[ 10-26-2002, 17:13: Message edited by: TEG ]

Gee what an edifying series of posts! I guess the underlever, screw-type action is stronger?? But I'm not sure now! In any case, I can't afford to buy one to find out, but do have a top-lever double, which is fun, but it is only an 8X60RS. So it, of course, doesn't enter into this discussion!!

I have no idea where the information came from, that TEG posted in his long explanation. But some of it is true, and some is not! I don't see the need to blast this guy, if you don't want to read his posts simply don't read them. I sure a lot of the folks here pass over mine on a regular basis. That fact doesn't bother me one way or the other. It doesn't change the information I post,and if someone wants it, it is there, and the price is right! If not,the remedy is only a click away. Like with food, all people are not required to have the same taste.

With that said, on the subject that was origenally asked, and so eloquently answered by a few here. Where I differ with most here is not on the strength of the lock up it's self, but the statement that it eleminates the springiness of the action comming off face, when fired, better than the Purdey system. It does not! The Jones turn lever works like a bolt action, by turning two lugs into mateing surfaces in the bottom of the chopper lump under the barrels, camming them tightly against the bar's upper surface, or WATER TABLE . This deffinetly holds the barrel flats tightly against the bar flats, and if there is any give, there, it is minimal. The lock up, however, is all forward of the standing breech, and unless the barrel assembly is fitted with a doll's head,or some other type of third fastener, the chamber end of the barrels is not tied to the standing breech. Stop, and think for a moment, the weekest point in a double rifle action is in the bar, dirrectly in a vertical line with the FACE, and 90% opposed to the top surface of the barr. With all the hook up forward of that, it cannot reduse this bending of the barr. The Purdey system,even without a third fastener, however, works on a plate that rides horrizonally, and extends into the action body to the rear of the standing breech(FACE)eliminating some of the bending. With the addition of a third fastener, this system is actually stronger, over all. I have several Jones levers but all are black powder rifles. The only NITRO jones I have ever owned was a 577NE 3'25" double rifle. I had no problem with it, other than it slapping me silly every time I shot it! The snap action is exactly the same as the top lever, only slideing the horrizonal plate by lever, rather than a top lever turning a cam surface in the bite plate. This is one reason all double rifles today are top lever, or clip action, it has been found to be actually stronger, and very much faster! It certainly is not easier to make than the Jones lever, so it wasn't changed for more profit.

This post is only valuable to those who want it, and is not required reading, and does not demad agreement!

MacD37,

Excellent post. I am not sure where you feel we disagree. I think we are basically in total agreement.

Ignore the flies, I do (at least I try)

TEG

MacD37,
I am one who one who always reads your posts.

Well said, and not at all what the POSseur said.

I am trying to ignore the POSseur, but it has so many handles, and it is like a car wreck on the highway, can't help but rubberneck sometimes.

RAB,
Ol' buddy. What exactly did MacD37 say that I didn't? Essentially, nothing. We agree on the inherent strength benefit of the Jones bolting (MacD37 described it as similar to a bolt action rifle's bolting and I agree with that description) and we agree that the action bar deflection is not necessarily effected one way or the other by the Jones or Purdey bolting systems. We also agree that the top lever or "push forward" underlever snap action are more ergonomic (easier to use). Now only MacD37 can say for certain if this is true, but this is my interpretation of his post.

Just because you do not know one from the other, besides the obvious lever giveaway doesn't matter to me. You are one, if not the original, AR posseur! Party on wannabe.

Sorry this fly annoyed me!

TEG

bobc,
I got a chance to read the Jack Lott piece, "Make Mine a Sidehammer Rifle." It looked familiar, an old Gun Digest, so I looked and found the original copy of it, 39th Ed.,1985, and could then make out the photographs, which did not fax well. Many thanks for recalling this piece for me.

I was so unimpressed by this that I had forgotten how "wonderful" the sidehammer-Jones-underlever double rifle could be.

The illustration showing the line engraving of "Henry Jones' double-grip underlever action" does show that the actual bites on the lump, that the little T-shaped piece on the lever engages, to "screw down" the barrels, ARE QUITE TINY.

So the underlever when closed holds the flats of the barrels down against the flats of the action, under a little tension, due to some camming of the tiny T in the small bite of the lump. SO WHAT!

The absence of cuts for the Purdey underbolts is a moot recommendation of bar strength in these old guns of inferior steel, when compared to today's guns.

The silence of operation of the sidehammer and underlever double rifle seems to be the only real advantage of this design. This silence is punctuated by BOOM-BOOM but may be important in the stalking and follow-up of game. But this is offset by the clumsiness and slowness of their operation in reloading. It is important to be able to reload quickly in the middle of a herd of pachyderms isn't it?

If I were going to own an antique double rifle, yes I would take a sidehammer underlever job in 577 NE weighing 12 pounds, thank you. But I probably wouldn't shoot it, and would be continually looking for the "greater fool than I" to unload it on.

And that reminds me, speaking of fools, to the POSseur: ES&D.

POSeur,
I have come to see that ignoring you is to no effect. We must be like flies on your stink to alert the unsuspecting. You call us flies because you know you are excrement.

Funny how you have taken to denigrating the oldtimers here who are sickened by your stink. Well, anyway, it is just more obvious and open in your behavior now. You have always been meanspirited and combative in your exchanges here.
No matter what identity you go by, you are the same POSeur.

RAB

POSeur,
Why don't you just change your handle to "POS"
and include the needle-jerking BS meter as your signature? Then we will not have to bother so much with alerting the unwary.

For POS:

[img] billmcmichen.home.mindspring.com/bsmeter.gif [/img]

For POS: web page

Pecos45,
Can you tell me how to make this BS meter show up directly in the post as you are doing? I would like to be able to flag the POSeur posts with this if I ever get a chance to.

RAB,

You have are logged as a Dec 2001 member. Got that beat by over a year. We both know that before "Daggaron" there was the VERY ignorant "RAB", who asked many many questions about big bore rifles, in particular.

Then one day, it would seem, this "RAB" thought he knew enough to reinvent himself and run with the BIG dogs. On this day "Daggaron" was born. As I recall I EXPOSED this "transformation" as it were and you began to answer to you orginal name "RAB". With regard to the bolting systems. Both systems incorporate "tiny" bolts and bites, as you put it. The difference is that one CANNOT deflect off it's bolting as it acts JUST like a screw thread, while the other can. WHAT THIS MEANS is that the JONES BOLTING SYSTEM IS MORE DURABLE than the Purdey, all things being equal.

I shall waste no more breath (key strokes in this case) on an ignorant posseur like you, RAB. You have very little first hand knowledge of double barreled actions, which is proven out almost everytime you type in text upon this site on this double subject. You did not even know what the Jones bolting system looked like until someone faxed you a picture. So very experienced of you RAB! That is what a possuer is. A pretender. Someone who pretends to be something they are not. This fits you MUCH better than me RAB. You point the finger of accusation at me only to draw the attention away from YOURSELF.

Remember, the tenth comandment RAB. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. Restated; liar liar pants on fire. I think the latter is most likely more comprehensible by the likes of you.

TEG

For POS:

RAB,

How telling about yourself. You now admit the truth about your BSing self. Your pretending has always been crystal clear to those of us that "have been there and done that". Party on, RAB-the-troll.

Something esle I find interesting is that all your big bore loads are verbatim copies of loads in A Squares manual, which I recently bought I might add. In my experience hand load ballistic performance almost never matches up perfectly with a published load in a manual. You must truly be blessed RAB to have guns which are identical in everyway to the test guns used by A Square! Could this just be coincidence (with multiple guns!!!), or more of your BS
make-believe world exposing itself again?

RAB, lets see some pictures of all those custom built 45 and 50 caliber big bore bolt actions you claim to own. Come on, be a better man than I and post pictures of your guns. Heck I can get my neighbors 10 year old daughter to post load data that matches yours! Posting load data like your's only requires someone to be literate!

TEG

[ 10-27-2002, 17:11: Message edited by: TEG ]

POSeur,
I had studied the Jones lever many years ago and found it so antiquated that I forgot about it.

The DaggaRon handle was suggested to me by another friendly forum member, as my former handle was "R. A. Berry" my true identity, which I make no secret of. I had over 1500 posts under that handle. I just like the sound of DaggaRon for the fun on this site.

The date you give is when I registered the new handle. I have been around here longer than you have, POSeur, and have followed your many name changes and flagellations administered to you by many here.

I admit that my first hand shooting and loading experience with double rifles is limited to one 470 NE Merkel, and one 338 WinMag O/U abomination. I think most people here will believe that. I do not think they will believe anything you say.

I have always been honest here, but do express opinions that differ from others based on the understanding that I have. I do own, handload for, shoot, and hunt with over fifty rifles, mostly big-bore bolt actions. I do have some understanding about sailing on the double rifle ship of fools that could help some others from going off course when they sail. I am sure I have studied and read about doubles more than you have in the last twenty years.

And unlike you, POSeur, I at least have some experience with double rifles, including the above and seeing what an H&H 500 NE does to elephants in the hands of someone more wealthy than me, in Botswana.

I can spot BS. I am this first person to "out" your queer behavior here, when you were Todd E, then a half dozen more identities at least.

So, now you think you have "outed" me? That is just too pathetically funny! My gut aches from the laughter. IAROTFLMAO

Looks like I figgured how to post the BS meter myself. Hope it lasts forever, 'cause the POSeur is not going away.

We just have to learn to put up with the stench. Crawl back in the privy now, POSeur, and play with yourself.

All my loads are from the A-Square manual? All the velocities are the same?

You are a queer piece of shit.

Show me an example of this.

I do not have to prove anything to a queer piece of shit like you.

You are just making up more lies.

Remember, POSeur, I was the the first to "out" your queer behavior. There is nothing to "out" in me.

Now, why don't you just ES&D.

For POS/TEG, what's one more name change?

RAB,

Please tell me what all my posting names have been. I have admitted to those I have used. SO this entire subject is a matter of public record.

To refresh your memory

Todd G

Todd E

SRS

TEG

That is a third of a dozen to be precise, not half. It is not my fault that your paranoia about being exposed has caused you and others to attack innocent new members! YOU know who you have attacked better than I. These people were innocent though.

TEG

BS meter reading on the POSeur's last post [IMG]http://bill mcmichen.home.mindspring.com/bsmeter.gif[/IMG] :

BS meter reading on the POSeur's last post:

[IMG]http://bill mcmichen.home.mindspring.com/bsmeter.gif[/IMG]

Everyone should practice posting this address for responses to the POSeur. Sometimes I screw it up because I am laughing so hard.

POSeur,
Why do you not post one photograph of yourself? I just want to know what your face looks like. You can see mine if you click on my home page in my profile. Check the impala page for the most detail of my face.

A POS with no credibility such as yourself deserves no more wasted effort from normal humans.

RAB,

You want to see the face of you enemy. How touching.

I TAKE IT, FROM THE FACT YOU HAVE NO PICTURES TO POST, THAT YOUR "50 RIFLE" BATTERY IS IMAGINARY!

Oh well, I have known that for sometime.

TEG

Pecos45,
Keep hammering on the POSeur.

If he won't show his face, we will have to find fitting representations to symbolize him.

A pile of dung?

Alfred E. Neuman smeared with crap?

Pecos, RAB doesn't have a 50 rifle battery on his website!

He has a 416 Rigby made by Ruger.

RAB, explain using pictures if possible just how that Ruger M77 MkII Magnum has been bedded. Many many owners of this rifle would like to know.

TEG

POSeur,
That rifle puts three bullets into 0.147" at 100 yards (you know the knitting needle load) with the GSC FN 380 grainers and 105 grains of H4831 >>> 2509 fps MV.

Frankly, I did not wish to fix something that wasn't broke yet, so it was left as it came from the factory regarding the bedding. If it ever cracks the stock, it will be repaired as needed with brass or steel pins or threaded rods and steel bed, so I cannot tell you yet as I have not done it nor felt the need to. Mine is the 10.75# heavy barrel model, so it is quite gentle in recoil.

The Ruger recoil plate mechanism on the barrel and no recoil lug on the action at all is an abomination, but it sure makes for an accurate rifle, and a likely stock cracker with extended use.

One day I may post some pictures of some guns, but not if you want me to.

I did find some photos to represent you for now, and I will keep looking.



And a closeup:

That last picture is the cover of the POSeur's autobiography. Authored by "the usual gang of idiots."