The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores I bought a gun once......Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| one of us |
Actually, I had it custom built. It was when the .300 WSM first came out and I just HAD to have one! Forget that I knew very little about the cartridge, other than it was pure "magic" because it was able to achieve .300 Win Mag ballistics with little or no recoil; fit into a short action; and would simply WOW everybody at the range because I had the latest and the greatest. Also forget the fact that I aready owned a very accurate .300 Winnie. Besides, the gun writers told me my arsenal would not be complete without one. But there was something many (most?) gun writers did not tell you about the WSM cartridge -- like how it was able to achieve the ballistics it did in a case that held less volume of powder. Of course, the answer is Winchester got SAAMI to approve a cartridge that operated at much greater pressures than the original Win Mag (sound familiar?). I soon found out the down-side of this when my hand loads started showing pressure signs far short of "advertised" velocities. In fact, for me in my custom rifle to achieve Win Mag velocities, I had to shoot factory ammo, and even that gives me a sticky bolt lift. I also found out that the short action case on the WSM did not allow me to use long-for-caliber bullets without encroaching on powder capacity, further restricting what I can achieve with the gun. I now have $2,000 rifle that gives me just slightly more velocity than a 30-06 with the same bullets. I find myself grabbing my old stand-by .300 Win Mag when I head out on an "important" hunt, leaving the beautiful custom job to adorn my gun safe. Now, I presently own two .375 H&H Magnum rifles that I dearly love. What do you think the chances are that I am going to buy a .375 Ruger anytime soon? | ||
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 P = 0.00% | |||
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Hopefully, the lesson learned will be retained for future reference! | |||
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I would buy a 375 H&H instead because the case lenghth of the Ruger is to short to feed smoothly.The new Ruger cartridge seems like a con job and is being promoted by conmen. | |||
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Hmmm.... My experiance is quite the oposite of yours. Even down to being "VERY" biased against the WSM line.. Well, I ended up with a 300WSM Featherweight just because the wood was to damn purdy to say no to.. To make a long story short, I'm astounded by the Accuracy (except Swift Scirroco's) And the velocities I'm getting are eye openers.. 165 IB"s @ 3300fps and 180 IB's @ 3150-3200fps. Most my groups are at 3\4" or a few just under 1/2" Cases have all gone so far 3 loadings, recoil seems on par but less abrupt than a FW 30-06 but I put a lot of that to the nice pad the WSM's have.. Will the WSSM's make it? I doubt it will all the other WSM's make it? I think the 300 will, 7mm maybe, the 270 no! Btw, I did have to reduce my shot groups from two three shot groups, to three two shot groups due to barrel temps on the FW barrel.. Cheating ?.. Maybe.. But when you can lay three two shot groups right over one another it sure impresses the hell out of me.. MopaneMike | |||
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Look at it this way; it's a lot cheaper than doing the same thing with women (herein after referred to as "the Ex-wife"). You can sell or trade the rifle and get something else with zero hassle. On the other hand...let's just not even go there! Rich DRSS  | |||
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P value of 0% - priceless! | |||
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I guess I think differently than other people. I bought a 300WSM and am very happy with its performance but I don't own a 300 Win or 30.06. If I owned a 300 Mag already, I wouldn't have bought a 300 WSM. I have a 375 H&H so I won't buy a 375 Ruger but I have nothing against the new Ruger and I hope it does well. I will buy/build a 416 or 404 Ruger (whichever gets standardized first) as I don't own a comparable cartridge right now. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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Well, I've just got to tell my 300WSM story. About a year ago, I decided I needed a rifle in .308 calibre. I settled on either a 30-06 or a 300WM. I also wanted it in CRF. Like a lot of folks here, I scoffed with derision at the 300WSM. Solution to a problem that doesn't exist, doncha know. About this time the M70 went under and the supply of affordable CRFs in the marketplace dropped dramatically. Shop as I might, I couldn't find a CRF in 30-06 or 300WM. It sounds hard to believe, but that was the situation. One day I came across a beautiful Kimber 8400 (CRF) with a Zeiss Diavari scope on the consignment rack. It was gorgeous! The price was right. The only problem was that it was chambered for the dreaded and despicable 300 WSM. No matter - I had to have it, and have it I did. The first order of business was to take it to the range. I dreaded the first shot. A high pressure cartridge and a light rifle will create unbearable recoil, doncha know! Well, I fired that first shot, and to my amazement it didn't actually tear my shoulder off. The recoil falls right within the recoil band of a number of rifles I have owned and shot, bracketed by the 270W and the 338WM. On any given day, I couldn't say that one was worse or better than the other. But that isn't the best part of the story. My first three shot group was .5" with factory ammo. Since then I have shot a variety of factory ammo out of the gun and the worst group I have gotten is about 1 1/4", with most ammo doing less than an inch. I haven't even begun reloading yet. It is unquestionably the most accurate out of the box rifle I have ever owned. I took it mule deer hunting last fall. I dumped a muley buck flat on his back with my first shot. To make a long story short the Kimber in 300WSM has become my favourite rifle (although I have a Browning 1885 in 22 Hornet that I am partial to). In fact I am so fond of the rifle, I am planning to take it to Africa with me this summer. My only question is will I take a second rifle as a back-up. The lesson for me out of all of this is if you keep your mind open, a whole world of pleasant surprises opens up. Is the 375 Ruger just a marketing gimmick? Yup, just like everything else invented since 2000 BC! | |||
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Ill 2ed that Bill Member DSC,DRSS,NRA,TSRA A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. -Mark Twain There ought to be one day - just one – when there is open season on Congressmen. ~Will Rogers~ | |||
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That is a gratuitous assumption, based upon absolutely no practical experience, either with the cartridge, or with the rifle.  I now have two Hawkeye Africans, and both feed slicker than Willy's dick.  | |||
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You don't have to have cancer to know it is a terrible disease. | |||
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The .375 Ruger case is larger than the .375 H & H, not smaller. SAAMI pressure standard for the Ruger is exactly the same as that of the .375 H & H. Pretty ignorant comparison. Look at it on the bright side though, shootaway's post was even dumber than yours. ---------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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If I owned two H&H's that I "dearly love" there would not be a snowball's chance in the tropics that I would buy a Ruger 375. Since I don't own a 375 caliber anymore, I would seriously look at any rifle that would be a great general hunting rifle with the qualities I prefer. It would not matter to me if it was chambered for the H&H or the Ruger. I will not buy a 375 Ruger in the Ruger rifle. I do not like that brand of rifles. Not trying to  . It is just MY personal preference, nothing more and nothing less.I am going to be in the same situation if they ever bring out the 416 Ruger. I currently own two Rigby's. I don't see much chance of me chasing the game so to speak. | |||
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I never said no one should buy the new rifle and cartridge. I only gave the reason(s) I won't be buying one, and related it to my WSM experience. I didn't mean to intimate that the Ruger case has less case volume than the H&H case. Only that it operates at higher max pressures than the H&H. Of course, you can load it down, but then you have a .375 H&H -- only it ain't! Anyone who wants one, get one. I'm sure it will do everything the factory says it will. But that's not enough for me to add one to my collection. | |||
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The two rounds are loaded to the same pressure, .375 H&H and Ruger. The Ruger is a larger capacity case and will have more velocity, although not more than 100-150 fps. Its beauty will be the ease of converting a standard FN or military Mauser without opening up anything but the boltface, which is easy, or convert a 7 Mag with no work. I have nothing against the H&H, I shot mine a few rounds this morning. If you already have the H&H, there is no need to rush out and buy the Ruger, unless of course you just want one. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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Uhhh - I don't think a negative WSM experience has much to do with the 375 Ruger. I don't see the connection. Just for the record - I wonder what is the SAAMI max operating pressure for the 375 Ruger? The 375 H&H is up there 60,000 psi +++, as I remember. I have read a lot of good things about the 375 Ruger, and some not-so-good. But primarily the guys actually putting their money out, and buying the rifles are saying positive things. My main and most reliable source of info is my gunsmith in Kenai AK, and Aaron says he thinks they will sell really well, and he has several customers on his waiting list. He says they handle very well, and feed well. I doubt that I'll buy one because I have a custom Mod 70 in 375 H&H, which feeds as good as is possible in a bolt action. After my gunsmith finished with it - new follower etc., it holds four down, and is super slick. I know I can't improve upon that particular rifle, but I am very partial to the Ruger action too. I currently have two Ruger actions for standard length magnum cartridges, and for an unaltered factory action, I don't think the feeding can be improved. Therefore, I'm very sure that there will be no feeding problems with the 375 Ruger African or the Alaskan. I also believe the 375 Ruger is here to stay, and will not suffer the fate of the WSM. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I read, or at least THOUGHT I read, that the max pressures on the Ruger round were higher than the H&H. If I am wrong, then so be it. It would definitely not be the first (nor last) time. I need to add one caveat to the equation, however: Were I going on a big bear hunt to Alaska or BC, and IF I couldn't get a Model 70 synthetic, stainless in .375 H&H for a decent price, then I would definitely consider the Ruger in .375 Ruger caliber. You see, I love my two H&Hs too much to expose their beautiful walnut stocks to the rigors of the northern wilderness. | |||
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 Once again, you've repeated the same false statement. SAAMI max pressure for the .375 H & H is 62,000 PSI. SAAMI max pressure for the .375 Ruger is 62,000 PSI. The .375 Ruger does not "operate at a higher max pressure than the H & H". The Ruger is a larger case that produces higher velocity than the H & H - AT THE SAME PRESSURE.----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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One possibility is to fit one of those cheap and durable Hogue stocks, or some other synthetic, onto one of those 375 beauties. Use the Hogue when actually hunting, use the wood stock when just looking at the rifle, showing it off to your friends, or just letting it hang around the house. Just a thought.  ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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See, you do need a .375 Ruger after all. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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For all of you who complain that my experience with the WSM does match yours, I realize than a great deal of my trouble comes from the fact that my custom M-700 action and Kreiger barrel are built extra tight and with almost zero freebore. My builder (my cousin) is a bench rifle specialist and he built this one the same way he would build a competition gun or 1,000-yard prairie dog rifle. I have friends who bought factory M-70s and shoot nothing but factory ammo who dearly love their WSMs (although one of them gets a sticky bolt lift sometimes). But my point was, and still is, that I did not NEED a .300 WSM, just like I don't NEED a .375 Ruger (at least not right now). AND, I am not going to let the gun writers talk me into buying one -- right now. | |||
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Not that I want to keep beating a dead horse,  but I am a stickler for details and hate to see "propaganda" spread that is simply untrue.400NE is correct that the 375 Ruger/375 H&H both have 62000psi max pressures. 300 Win Mag: 64000psi MAX 300 WSM: 65000psi MAX 1,000 psi means almost nothing. Winchester did not make SAAMI do anything out of the ordinary for the 300 WSM. Lots of other ctg's are at 65kpsi, 300 Wby, 270 Win, 6mm, 22-250, etc. | |||
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I gotta respond to see if I can give a little CPR to the horse. Yes, it is true that the max pressures for the WSM and the regular Win Mag are within 1,000 psi of each other, BUT, I believe you will find that most folks (not all), including me, operate their Win Mags far below the max pressure. In my case, I load 180 grain bullets to an even 3000 fps utilizing Re.22 (76 or 77 grains, depending on the bullet). Depending on the bullet and what manual you read, this produces a pressure anywhere from 46,000 to 50,000 CUP. This equates to 50,000 to 57,000 PSI -- well below the allowable 64,000. However, when I operate my WSM at 2920 fps, pushing the same bullets, I am at 63,500 psi, which is pretty darn close to the absolute max of 65,000. If I load my Win Mag to this pressure, I can push a 180-grain bullet to more than 3,200 fps. (I don't do that because if it won't die at 3000, I'm not sure I really want to kill it!) THIS is what the gun writers have been saying when they say the WSM operates at higher pressures than the regular Win Mag. When loaded to the same pressure level, the WSM can not compete. Put THAT in your horse and smoke it!  | |||
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Let's get our facts right. The 375 Rooger has 3.5 grains more case capacity which I believe was calculated to mean an additional 37 fps. If the published extra 250 fps is achieved, it is only by running the Rooger at higher pressure. | |||
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Bullshit. Let's get out facts right, indeed, because you haven't even come close.
According to Hornady, the cartridge's designer, it's 6% larger, or 5.5 to 6 grains.
"Calculated" by who? A stump-tailed macaque? More BS internet invention. You don't "calculate" pressure in a completely new cartridge case - you test it in a pressure gun. Hornady tested this stuff endlessly in theirs. In addition to the larger case, they also found the same thing other manufacturers have - the larger diameter, shorter powder column is more efficient. What did you get in YOUR pressure gun? What protocol did you follow for transducer placement?
Published by who, and where? I've never read anything that stupid anywhere. Hornady gives 2660 fps for a 300 grain bullet, vs 2515 fps for the .375 H & H, an increase of 145 fps in barrels of the same length. You don't usually post complete BS, Dan, but you did this time. ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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400 Nitro Express These are just some observations I have made and please feel free to reject them in any manner you choose  I have had quite a few bench guns in 6mm/06 and 6mm/284, all 12 twist barrels and was mainly shooting up to 75 grainers and some 85 grainers. Have also had 6mm/06 barrels rechambered to 6mm/284 so testing couldbe done in the same barrel. When loaded to the point where accuracy fell off the 6mm/06 was faster. Personally (and based on the 6mm/06 and 6mm/284) I think the 375 Ruger (if we leave re 15 out of the equation) will be faster than the 375 H&H by a greater marging than the increase in case cpacity would suggest and especially with long spitzers. The 4350 type powders are too slow for the H&H and the 4064 type powder too fast. I found that the even though the 6mm/284 was sllightky smaller than the 6mm/06 it did better with slower powders and for that reason I think the 375 Ruger will be able to get up more pressure than the H&H with the 4350 type burn rates. As to short and fat cases being better I think that stems from years of chronographing at varuious ranges world wide between the 22 PPC/6mm PPC and the 22/250 and 243. Poorly bedded rifles and especially poorly bedded rifles with shit barrels often shoot well with lower pressure loads. The average 22/250 and 243 at the range will fit that category. On the other hand the 22 and 6mm PPCs are usually loaded to higher pressure. It is not uncommon to see the PPCs giving velocities that are in the general area as the average 22/250 and 243. There is a chap who I think posts as Bob T on HA and use to be on AR as Bob 338 and was a 338 nut. He tried the 338 WSM and also the 338 Jamison and of course the 338 Win. Velocities came in line with powder capacities. A mate of mine on this forum, Blair338/378 has just recently changed from the 223 WSSM to 22/243 and initial testing is interesting  These are heavy match grade barrel rifles, Jewell triggers, Nightforce scopes etc. A general rule which has and does work (assuming equally suitable powders) is the percentage increase in velocity will be 1/4 the perecentage increase in case capacity. The key poing being "assuming equally suitable powders" and for the reasons I outlined above I think that is where the 375 Ruger will gain....it will do better with the 4350 type burn rates and doubly so with long spitzer bullets. "the equally suitable powders" is why the various the 375 Improveds, whether 375 Wby, 375 AI etc show velocity increases over the H&H that are considerably geater than the increase in case cpacity would suggest. In a nutshell the extra capacity of the 375 Improved makes it more suitable for the 4350 type burn rates. Mike | |||
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400NE, Not complete BS, but 500grains does like to slant things severely against the .375 Ruger, which seems to be considered just another pimple on his  narcissistic butt, an irritant upstart of no consequence ... until he shows his arse here for all to see, how embarassing ... again! Depending on the make of the .375 H&H brass used to compare to the Hornady .375 H&H brass, you will get differences varying from 3.6% (Winchester .375 H&H) to 9.9% (PMP .375 H&H) greater capacity for the .375 Ruger, which has only one source of brass, only in the form of loaded ammunition. O.K. an average advantage to the .375 ruger might be considerd 6.75%. The .375 Ruger has average of 101.1 grains of gross water capacity for a fireformed case from my Hawkeye (5 cases measured). Now a correction to my previous typo on velocity of .375 Ruger Hornady factory ammo: Hornady Advertised factory ammo velocities (unspecified barrel length): 300-grainer: 2660 fps 270-grainer: 2840 fps My chronograph check, 10-round average for each (23" barrel): 300-grainer: 2657.5 fps 270-grainers: 2782.1 fps Right on for the 300-grainer, and less than 60 fps slow on the 270-grainer. That is amazingly little hype. | |||
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SuperSpeed, I do agree with you that the "powder threshold burn rate/volume leap" of the .375 Wby gives it greater advantage over the .375 H&H than one would expect from case capacity comparison alone. Then it is indeed possible to give a higher velocity than expected with the .375 Ruger. My guess from dissecting the factory loads is that they are using only 90% of the net case capacity with the 300-grain loads (84 grains of some ball powder) and using only about 95% of net case capacity with the 270-grainer which has base of the bullet seated deeper due to spire point configuration. And the 270 grainers use only about 83 grains of ball powder, which must be a faster powder. Just a guess on the net case capacities used in the factory ammo, soft points, by eyeballing and weighing powder charges and listening to their "shake." | |||
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It's all conjecture and hearsay without a pressure gun. ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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Lots of highly suspect assumptions in that, and it still isn't analogous in any way to a Ruger/H&H comparison. ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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400 Nitro Express If everything has to be based on a pressure gun then we may as well close the forum down. Ultimately it comes to the real world of people reloading these calibres. Who knows, the powder that gives the best velocity in the 375 Ruger might not shoot well. The Hornady brass might be soft etc and etc and etc....or all of that could be reversed. You knocked GAHUNTER's post but he is posting what is happening in the real world and for the way he does things. Your pressure gun does not tell us that the brass for the WSSMs is thick and lacks spring. If I use a "pressure gun tested" load and anneal the case head than that will be real interesting to fire Hornady's pressure testing does not mean shit to the reloader because we will be using different powders. Expand your horizons and have some fun Mike | |||
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Jeez Mark, take a Midol. It's Ruger's marketing propaganda, not mine. Or are you saying that you can get higher velocity with the same pressure with the same case volume??? As for the rest of the facts, please refer to my post, not your temper tantrum. | |||
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Sorry Dan, it's been a hard day. But, where did you see the 250 fps? Honestly, I haven't seen that. ------------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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I also seeem to remember seeing the 250 f/s....but it might have been do with a chap who provided his loading data. I think a link was posted on AR. | |||
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I managed to miss that. Sounds like somebody that got carried away for sure. ----------------------------------------------- "Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder." | |||
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He might have been taking 2450 for 300 gr H&H, which is common for the factory load and got 2700 with his reloads......might have a bit of help by using a Chrony | |||
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