Please note before reading this that I'm in NO way trying to piss anyone off, I simply want your opinions regaurding the "why's" of fireing big bores, nothing more.







I watched the "Klaus firing the .700 NE video" a few weeks back and meant to ask then this question then, but I forgot.



Although Mr. Klaus handled the recoil of the .700 NE quite well, had Saeed put a muzzle-break on that rifle the recoil would have been reduced atleast half if not more.



My question is this: Why do some of you insist upon subjecting yourselves to unnecessary amounts of recoil when fireing some of these monsters? I can understand if it's a double rifle or shotgun, theres not much you can do in the way of pain releif with those fine guns, but the weapons that don't fall into the aforementioned category could be taimed quite well simply by adding a compensator of some sort to the barrel.



Is it the look of the rifle that's more important than the pleasure of shooting it (not to say that all big bores kick really hard; for example, the .470 MBogo has a very moderate kick whereas the .577 Tyrannosaur is mule to say the least)? I'll be the first to addmit that some rifles/shotguns simply look better without compesation, but when you get into the REALLY big bores I'd be willing to give a little in the looks dept. for more comfort while shooting.



Sincerely

Larry (the perplexed ) A.

Larry

The answer is very simple.

We all shoot and own guns for our pleasure. Each calibre and type of gun as compared to another calibre or another type of gun represents a series of trade offs and each of us view those trade off differently.

As an example let's compare many of the regular contributors on this forum to those members who are either not on this forum at all or if they are then only rarely.

I think it is fair to say that most keen gun owners are interested in powerful rifles, say 375 H&H and up. Thus nearly all gun owners would get pleasure from owning a rifle of 375 H&H and/or up. However, the majority of gun owners find that the pain or displeasure associated with owning a big bore such as recoil, cost of rifle and components, weight, more difficulty in getting components etc exceeds the pleasure to be gained from owning a big bore.

Same deal with muzzle brake Vs no muzzle brake.

Actually the majority of shooters would take your query on "why not fit a muzzle brake" one step further to "why own and shoot a big bore"

Mike

Well said Mr. Mike375.





I know that you didn't take any offence to the question, but once again I would like to point out that I was in no way questioning the intelligence of Big Bore shooters, simply wondering what the reasoning is behind some of your decisions.





Anyone else want to give their opinion?

Coz it's fun.

The muzzlebrakes are also considered to have their own disadvantages such as adding length to the barrel generally, noise- which they admittedly do increase, and the cost of making or installing such a device.

The biggest disadvantage of course as Mike alluded to is that in some cases they ruin the whole reason people wanted the gun in the first place.

If you want to 'walk in the shoes' of an historic figure like Fletcher Jamieson with your bigbore, the trade off of of a little less recoil from a muzzelbrake is not worth destroying the romantic aspect of your rifle.

Why Saeed didn't put one on his 700 only he can say.I would think he didn't waste time with the hassle, since the rifle was probably not going to see much use anyway.


Karl.

I would say the biggest reason is noise. If your only going to shoot the rifle at the range with earplugs and or muffs installed then the extra noise from a muzzle brake wouldn't matter. If your planning on going hunting with the gun then the extra blast from the muzzle brake can be a bad thing. I know some people spout that they only hunt with earplugs in, but Duck Hunt on the Nintendo doesn't really count.

Stock design can make a huge difference in felt recoil between two rifles that can generate the same recoil energy. With a straight line stock that has a good recoil pad area topped with a Pachmayer F990 pad recoil in the 90 ft lbs area can be very controllable and not be painful at all. So in this area of recoil give or take a bit I really don't find it necessary to put on a muzzle brake.
Take care,
Dave

Gentlemen,

Shooting any of the large bore rifles, duplicating factory ballistics, does not really make it necessay to put a muzzle brake on.

I have made and installed brakes on rifles as small as a 260 Remington, because the owners wanted it.

A muzzle brake certainly reduces the felt recoil, but, personally, I would rather not have one on my hunting rifle.

I do have some with brakes and others without.

From the noise point of view, my hearing is so far gone it really makes very little difference to me.

Years ago we used to shoot 44 magnums revolvers and TC Contenders in all sorts of calibers, without wearing hearing protection. That is what caused most of the damage to our hearing.

We do not have a muzzle brake on our 577 T.Rex because we enjoy seeing it become airborne.

There it is: entertainment value!

George

I would like to thank all of you who have given your opinions, they (your opinions) are to say the least intrigueing and insightful.


Thanks for your responses.

Larry (the_not_perplexed_anymore) A.

Elmer Keith did'nt use no muzzle brake... and if it's good enough for my pappy, it's good enough for me...

Seriously, though, I'ld rather be whacked in the shoulder on a snap shot than have my hearing PERMENANTLY damaged by the first and every subsequent shoot of a braked rifle. (yes, I know ANY un muffled sound....)

When one practices with a hard kicking rifle, the SUBJECTIVE recoil lessens, over time. After getting a pretty good mastery of my 500 jeffery, 416's tend to feel like a 308 or 30-06

But, aint that the "kicker"... lots of folks THINK a 30-06 kicks and they get 270's for lesser recoil.

*I* think even the lightest POSSIBLE 30-06 rifle (6#, with scope) has enough recoil to let you know it went off,

Back to big bores... Big bores are going to be used in places where you mught actually NEED to hear the critter sneaking up on you,,, to give before you get, so to speak...

I've been on a hunt, when a gentlemen with a muzzlebrake, who took a snap shot, took his game, and IMEMDIATELY was informed it was certain death by the assemblage if he EVER fired that gun without warning again. To calm the group, I did offer to tap and put set screws in his brake, to avoid a recurrence...

jeffe

Johan,

Of course, you are correct. Watching the aerobatics of the rifle pirouetting through the air, and the shooters staggering around the shooting room is priceless!

George

Ya'll are evil!

.

Alf,

You certainly can accustom yourself to heavy recoil, but it takes time, patience, and access to several firearms of increasingly greater recoil (or the ability to handload increasingly heavier loads, up to maximum).

The whole point is to prove to your central nervous system that the recoil won't hurt you.

Starting out with full power loads in a .470 Capstick didn't seem all that prudent, so I began my shooting with 'starting' loads, then worked up to the fire-belching variety incrementally.

George

It's like putting a squishy easy ride pimpmobile suspension on a sportscar, it totally defeats the purpose!

In all honesty, I hate the muzzleblast generated by brakes, and there are other means of dealing with recoil. A past mag recoil shield does wonders for the shoulder, and taking standing shots lets your body move with recoil. I have never been hurt by a properly setup big bore, though my knuckle did take a rapping by the dogleg bolt from my P-14 500 Jeffrey before I straightened it out.

With the right mental attitude, you can handle plenty of recoil. My first centerfire was a lightweight .308 win, and I couldn't imagine handling anymore recoil. Then I worked up. One range session I had the .308 and 458 lott, and switched between the two guns. The .308 had literally no recoil compared to the 458.

To Alf, I've never flinched with a bigbore. The key is, limiting ones shooting session. One range session I just wasn't feeling up to snuff, so only lit off 7 of the 10 full patch 458 Lott loads I'd brought.

Funny thing is, the one rifle I've noticed I flinch with lately is the Ruger 10/22. Certainly a 22 rf has almost no recoil, but the slam of the heavy bolt is quite unerving.

I think I finally came to a point in my life about 10 years ago where I was essentially immune to recoil. I think it was more a mental state I had arrived at by truly convincing myself that it wouldn't hurt me and I could "batter" myself endlessly with hard kickers and it didn't matter who loaded the rifle.

I simply didn't flinch or fear the rifle's recoil. I was "cured".

Then... A particularly nasty problem reared it's ugly head. I suffered a torn retina and my eye doctor assured me that heavy recoiling rifles weren't the problem but then when I had it happen a few years later again I did some research that I should have done before.

It seems that slamming the head about can cause a lot of stress for the tissues that connect the retina to the back of the eyeball. This might not be the most scientific explanation that is available but there you have it.

I'm now 55 years old and although I'm still seemingly immune to recoil's effects I am afraid of it's possible consequences related to my retinas.

Some people are more susceptable to torn and detached retinas than others but it is an issue that you shouldn't ignore.

Boxers suffer it almost universally. That severe blow to the head/eye can cause the tissues to separate and if not treated by laser or cryo surgery you can suffer incurable blindness in that eye from a detached retina.

I'm going to be putting a brake of some sort on any rifle with more or equal recoil than a 375H&H or a 350 Rem Mag can generate.

I hope others don't suffer the malady that I've experienced but if you do then don't walk... RUN to your eye doctor and have it laser treated before it becomes untreatable.

Laser surgery is quite mild and leaves you with a mild headache and light sensitivity for a couple weeks. The "holes in your vision" quickly are compensated for and you can return to "normal 20-20 vision" quickly.

If left untreated you can quickly lose your vision in the affected eye.

If you ever see large "floaters" that appear suddenly in your vision or "sparklers" at the edge of your vision... Don't walk... RUN to your nearest eye surgeon.

In this eye protection game... Tough guys finish LAST!!!

$bob$

CONTROL: of a fast car, wheelies on a powerful motorcycle or 4-wheeler, or a shooting a big bore rifle accurately...or having the best looking, best built wife,...same-same. Controlling things, that out of control can kill you...there's an incredible rush there. The moment a friend shoots a rifle of yours and nearly does the Saeed Shuffle, then you take it and hit a 9" pie plate target at 50 yds twice in about fifteen seconds; then you are The Man!!! I don't find myself flinching anymore. I just know the rifle is going to recoil and I focus on the target and follow through and BANG! target serviced. The brake is an admission that you can't handle the recoil, the confession of being a wimp.

Rich
DRSS

I've just never found a brake i like the looks of.

$Bob$,

Rooting around in the archives?

George

Some people like brakes ,, some don,t..... Has nothing to do with wimpyness .. I know a 170 lb man that LOVED the recoil of my 500 A-Sq. with factory ammo..I enjoyed it , rarley . but I never liked it.....Hunting and shooting with electronic hearing protection is getting to be more common place .... I always liked the look of a muzzel brake ... The ones Lutz Meoller makes are essespecially interesting ,, as are the X brake .... They work .. any rifle is loud with nor without a muzzel brake.. My wifes 16 1/2 " barrel 308 is painfully loud and it has no brake.....

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
$Bob$,

Rooting around in the archives?

George

Yep... Doing some research on brakes for my Remmy AWR 375H&H...

$bob$

Is there any real need of such monster guns? I am sure I could shoot anything on earth with a .375H&H and the right bullet. OK, it is not a stopper, but if taking a .416 Rigby or a .470 N.E. will do all requirements, so why is there the need of .600NE or .700 NE or even Tyranno Rex???

Sorry, shooting is just one thing on a hunt. Careful living and good situation awareness the other part and for sure the bigger one...

quote:

Originally posted by Nishoba01:
.....Although Mr. Klaus handled the recoil of the .700 NE quite well, had Saeed put a muzzle-break on that rifle the recoil would have been reduced atleast half if not more.
.....
A.

A.,
Can't speak for Saeed, but I won't put a muzzle brake on any rifle I intend to hunt. My hearing and that of my friend's, at.el., is more important to me than showing off a rifle that I can't handle well w/o a brake.

PS: Saeed

Alf

It is certain that you can become accustomed to recoil, I have gotten more and more tolerant as I've shot and aged. I would certainly drop down in caliber before I'd put a muzzle brake on anything. That would be like putting mud tires on a Corvette IMO. They're ugly and loud SOB's.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Jeffeosso:<br /><br />Do you honestly believe that you can "accustom" yourself to recoil?<br /><br />Those who shoot alot will differ, in fact I bet if you shoot a high recoil rifle enough it will induce flynching.<br /><br />We often play the game of "like hell I flynch!"<br /><br />Take a kicker shoot it some then then let someone else load it for you, when you now fire the gun you not know if there is a live one under the hammer or not. It's painful to the ego for it has the nasty habit of showing up that flynch!

Kinda funny how I was reading an article by Boddington on curing a flynch, it's the same one el jeffe method described a while back, it's easy enough, shoot a .22 rimfire. That'll clue you in on if you're flynching or not. A simple a honest method of curbing or curing one.
Also el jeffe said to cut into your bigbore shoot with a .22 then carry on with the bigbore.

It is a matter of being able to do it. For some of us, it is simple, we like it!!

today i practiced rapid firing my .375 h&H M70... 3 shots in under 8 seconds at a plastic bucket lid at 15 yds...the other shooters around me were all small-bore shooters and looked on, in awe, that i was willing to do this....it was fun, i can handle the recoil, it doesn't bother me...about 40 yrs a go, a man made fun of me, because i was afraid to shoot a 30/30... i decided then that 1 day that i would be able to handle the big-bore stuff i now shoot...12 yrs ago, i had my first custom barrel installed, the 'smith convinced me i need a brake on a .300 win mag... i now know that i did't need it...currently my big gun is a ruger tropical rifle in .458 win mag...recoil is comfortable with 350 gr loads, compares to my .338 win mag....