I must say that I'm happy with everything about the new line, so far. I haven't shot it yet but will report back when I do. The whole package is better than the guns that were coming out of New Haven, IMO. For a factory rifle at the price point it's hard to beat. Fit/finish is very good. The new trigger feels great, so the MOA is good for my taste, and the trigger itself is wide and rounded. Slight redesign on the mag box. It's refreshing that; ALL the metal is matte finish, misc small parts (incl the front bead) are the same on every rifle, it has a decent follower, bedded at the receiver tang now too. There's still other components I'd like to have seen them change in addition to the trigger. These are shortcomings are inexpensive to fix and should only add slightly to the cost, which I'd pay. Time to go load some ammo to feed it!

David

It sounds nuce. Post some photos and groups when you get a chance.

George

Anxious for your full range report. I was eyeballing the 375H&H version. Nobody in my area carries any big bore rifles but the local Dick's Sporting Goods can order me one for $1129.

They made a slight change in the barrel profile. Old 416's were about 0.712" muzzle diameter, the new ones are about 0.730". If you replace the cheezy looking factory front sight ramp with an NEC #6 (.748") banded front sight and use a .276 fiber optic front sight insert, the factory rear sight will regulate spot on at 35-50 yards. It looks lot better,too

I'd change the rear as well if I were changing the front sight, it's easy to knock them off. These screwed on factory irons should be soldered. I've loktited the screws and JB welded the bases with great results. Gonna scope it but thanks for the info, may still pit NECG irons on it, do work/look better. Bigger bbl profile is good for the 416 & 458 models, not so for the 375. That's been one of my gripes about factory safari rifles; same bbl blank profile for all chamberings. CZ and Ruger do it too. The 375 handles like a lead filled club and in 458 it's only 9 lbs! Luckily my favorites are the .40's. Any 416 from Winchester, Ruger or CZ are are the perfect weight, for me, and handle well, esp the M70. 458 Win Mags are OK but a 9ish lb Lott is brutal.

quote:

They made a slight change in the barrel profile. Old 416's were about 0.712" muzzle diameter, the new ones are about 0.730"

If it wasn't too big to begin with they had to make them even fatter, eh?

My "old" Model 70 .416 Rem. Mag. measures 0.720 inch diameter at the muzzle.

Shot it today and it did well and will do better then my eyes will do on an indoor range. Been a while, now just getting back into big guns. 9 lb 416 got my attention. Just shot 7 rnds to check the irons. A fast 350 gr and 400 gr TBSS were very close POI. Will go back in 1-2 days when Talley bases arrive, with a Euro Diamond 1-4 on it, that'll bring it up to about 10.5 lbs loaded, perfect. Fast 350 gr was first lot of reloads from couple years ago. Showed pressure signs so back to the bench. Will try to post target, rifle pics too, not that anyone needs to see a factory M70.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I must say that I'm happy with everything about the new line, so far. I haven't shot it yet but will report back when I do. The whole package is better than the guns that were coming out of New Haven, IMO. For a factory rifle at the price point it's hard to beat. Fit/finish is very good. The new trigger feels great, so the MOA is good for my taste, and the trigger itself is wide and rounded. Slight redesign on the mag box. It's refreshing that; ALL the metal is matte finish, misc small parts (incl the front bead) are the same on every rifle, it has a decent follower, bedded at the receiver tang now too. There's still other components I'd like to have seen them change in addition to the trigger. These are shortcomings are inexpensive to fix and should only add slightly to the cost, which I'd pay. Time to go load some ammo to feed it!

David

I agree, these are damn nice rifles. I have a new Super Grade in .300 Win Mag and it is a wonderful rifle for a production gun, much, much nicer than what was coming out of New Haven. I am very happy with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
My "old" Model 70 .416 Rem. Mag. measures 0.720 inch diameter at the muzzle.

Mine is .744" but I wacked it to 22" a long time ago.

Yours sound like a beauty. Keep us updated and add some pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

They made a slight change in the barrel profile. Old 416's were about 0.712" muzzle diameter, the new ones are about 0.730"

If it wasn't too big to begin with they had to make them even fatter, eh?

Mine is 0.712" at the muzzle. It does not taper to 0.730" until beyond over 2 1/2 inches behind the muzzle. I like this slimmer profile as it gives the 416 weight savings right off the bat compared to the smaller bore 375.

Also, mine does have a NECG Classic rear sight with a Williams Streamline front. If the NECG is well fitted, it will not come off. If the Streamline is silver soldered, you can beat it with a hammer and it will stay put. I've built mine along the lines of Phil Shoemakers 416 light rifles, and this thing is lighter than many standard caliber sporters. The fixed sights are light, strong, and effective. They hold up to the recoil and they hold up to rough use. The fiber optic sight will not be as strong and you'd be better served cutting down a .125" Brockman w/ tritium insert to fit the .250" X 3/8" Williams dovetail. With a tall base ramp and short partridge blade, it'll be very strong when soldered.

If you do not silver solder the front ramp and/or you must drill and tap shallower than the width of the mounting screw due to a thin barrel wall, you'd then be better served with the greater mounting surface of a barrel band front ramp. But if you can drill and tap at a depth equal to the width of a mounting screw and in addition silver solder the ramp, you'd not knock that thing off.

What is the change in the bottom metal compared to the Williams bottom metal used in the NH 416s? Do they still use Williams extractors??

Best

No change in bottom metal except in finish, it's matte not polished. It is a Williams extractor now but I can't remember any of the NH Safari Classics I've had, and it's several, having Williams extractors. Jim Wisner told me they were stamped and I'd always changed them to Williams.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
No change in bottom metal except in finish, it's matte not polished. It is a Williams extractor now but I can't remember any of the NH Safari Classics I've had, and it's several, having Williams extractors. Jim Wisner told me they were stamped and I'd always changed them to Williams.

You have me lost on that one, I've had three NH Safari Classics, two 416s and a 375. All three were identical in having a matte finish that matched the receiver. Williams made the one piece bottom metal and the machined extractors on all three, identical to the ones he sold aftermarket, and all three had NECG classic sights and the now discontinued famous trigger. Could you be talking about the older Super Express with the fold down sight or maybe the custom shop that had the matte receiver with contrasting polished blue barrel? Maybe an older Super Grade??

I had thought that USRAC used the Williams extractor on all the Safari Classics with his bottom metal while USRAC used cast MIM extractors on all the other Classics. I'd also thought that long about 2004 or so, USRAC switched over to the Williams extractor on the remaining Classics while dumping the MIM unit and that Williams continued to supply the extractors and a ton of bottom metals until the plant closing around 2006. During the transition period, Matt used to post on 24hour Campfire with instructions on how to inspect the extractor to see if you had the old MIM unit or the newer machined unit. Prior to this, he gave me detailed tuning instructions for his machined extractor installed by USRAC in the Safari. I seem to recall him telling me that they were installing his extractor as he shipped the units straight out of the box without any additional tuning to perfect function.

Best

Maybe I had older Classic Safari Express rifles, dunno. Never owned a Super Express that's for sure. But not a one of them had a complete matte finish on the metal. Bottom and bolt handle was always polished. And they came with matte blue extractors, just like on the rest of the line did. The ones I got from Williams were always matte SS, like the one on it now. Williams may make a matte blue version tho, but I only found this out when after ordering many the girl asked me what finish I wanted. Before that they just sent the SS. If that's the case, and I didn't know how to tell the difference, then maybe I was switching one for another of the same. I assumed the blue ones were junk. The front sight has always been Williams. Back sights on mine were always NECG Classic, still is.

I'm not an total expert on these, and to try to keep up with what Winchester or Colt did/didn't over the years is impossible for me.

Now if only they got rid of the stupid gas check and compensate for it's absence, if possible. I remove them. And allow each chambering it's own barrel contour then it would be the perfect factory safari rifle. Well, almost.

Where can I find the info on telling the diff between the extractors and, most important, find the info on tuning the unit? Need to call Williams??

The alternative would be a nice metal polish and quality blue on the whole gun. A litle extra time and cost, but then it would be a real "super" or "classic" M70.

It does have a quality finish now, matte all over, perfect for a safari rifle. The high polish blue I've seen on other models has been very good, not spotty like many before.

I'm rusty shooting big bores. Plus indoors, iron sights, without my glasses. I wear bifocals with an astigmitism so with or without specs, shooting indoors is a mind fuck. Irons in outdoor daylight is still just fine, but indoors I can't see shit. Excuses, excuses! Now that the scope is mounted I'll load up some more ammo and go check it. This thing should shoot real well.

All of my Safari Classics and every one I've handled had a machined stainless Williams extractor with the Williams one piece bottom metal. Only difference being the extractor was hand fit if from the Custom Shop, but it was straight out the box installed if on the assembly line. I'm no Winchester expert so I have no knowledge as to how far back you'd need to go to see a black cast MIM extractor on a Safari.

If I recall correctly, all the blued or black extractors were USRAC cast MIM units. All of the Williams extractors installed on the Safari Classics were indeed machined stainless. I think there was a difference between the early Williams extractors installed at the NH plant and the later extractors in the identifying markings. I seem to recall something about Winchester seeing a problem with having a "W" on them as some would take it to be "W" for Winchester. If you do a search on 24Hour Campfire, you could probably find some old postings from Matt on the letter codes he used on the extractors. Once you have a Williams extractor in your hand, you can easily tell the difference between that and the MIM unit.

Matt has left the family business as far as I know but they should have some instructions posted on the Williams web page on tuning an extractor. Again, I'm no expert, but I can say without a doubt that Williams extractors were used on the Classics by USRAC at the NH plant around the time they were using the newer Miller design stocks.

Beautiful rifle by the way!

Best

I just did a quick peek and found this dating back to 2004. I didn't look any further but at least at that point USRAC used stainless steel Williams extractors:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...=320108141#320108141

"We would like to extend our deepest apologies for the delay in shipping the 4140 steel extractors that have been on backorder for quite sometime now. Due to the overwhelming amount of production that we have been trying to maintain with the stainless extractors for USRAC, and the significant programming changes that we have done to our original programs for steel extractors, it has caused us significant delays. It has also forced us to reprogram for the steel versions only, due to their lack of machinability as compared to the stainless versions." - Matt Williams 2004

Blk extractor CSE M70s


http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100128934

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100140514

I think that explains it, they are the older Safari Express rifles prior to the later Classics. The "Classic Pre-'64 Model 70 type action design with claw extraction" goes back to 1994 with the later NH version being better than the earlier NH version. The early versions are the rifles that many complained about when talking about the later improved generation of Classics prior to being discontinued in 2006. It's hard to keep up with all the changes.

Your latest FN version is bound to have better tolerances as the machinery is new compared to the old machinery in NH. But, I do like the old trigger and the lighter barrel contour from the previous generation. They can be turned into outstanding hunting rifles.

Later

Gary,

To me it explains that the Safari Express (Classic) had the shitty extractor early on. I did say I probably had older Safari Express rifles, all bought used.

Classic refers to the whole line of CRF guns, as you said, since '94. There weren't "Safari Express" rifles AND "Classic Safari Express" rifles since the end of the Super Express. The African chamberings have all been marked "Safari Express", on the rifle and box, since the end of the Super Express. Mine were all marked Safari Express, including the NC model I have now. "Classic" never showed up marked anywhere except the catalog.

And even the lastest of the Super Espress rifles were "Classic", CRF.

Funny, I found a sealed in the bag Williams SS extractor in my garage. I remember now that one of the last rifles I bought already had the Williams extractor on it. I thought the previous owner had changed it out. I ordered the extractor before I even got the rifle but didn't need it. Because...I finally ended up with a rifle that included the Williams extractor.

David

Watch, some day collectors may value the early Classic with the black MIM extractor demanding high prices. What is crappy and quickly discarded one day may turn into rare gold with unique value for the safe queen collector decades later

My "old" Model 70 .416 Rem. Mag. came from the factory - the custom shop, no less - with the MIM extractor. It now wears a Williams.

Nice looking .416 you got there!
I guess I need to handle one of the new ones in person one of these days, although I don't really need to buy anything for awhile.

Hey the rear sight is it standing or a folding sight?
Just curious because I have a .375 H&H M70 that has a folding rear sight and I'd like to change it out to a standing or fixed rear sight.
Nice looking rifle and looks like it is gonna be a shooter too.

Standing rear sight, NECG Classic. Your 375HH must be a Super Express, they have folding rear sights.

It seems the only folks that "poo poo" the new M-70s are those that don't own one. Of those that do (including myself) folks post positively about them.

IMO....they are as good or better than any M-70 ever!

Showbart,

I'm trying to keep track of the changes in the M70. I believe you confirmed that the new FN Safari Express continues to use a Williams extractor, but how about the bottom metal? I just ran into a February post made by Matt Williams describing the new FN where he wrote that all the FNs use cast bottom metal except for the Safari Express and that the steel is not from them. He also goes on to say the stocks were not made by Winchester but are manufactured by a company in Italy.

Can you confirm if yours has Williams bottom metal or not? And do you see any difference in the stock from your older Safaris??

Thanks

Were they marked? I think you said they were. This one isn't marked, and I never looked for markings on my earlier ones. Bottom metal is strong. Strong spring, good follower-marked "F1", relief cuts in mag box (not sure why). 458 could probably convert to Lott without a problem. The two I did do needed a Wisner 375 steel follower and a stronger spring from Brownells.

I haven't removed the extractor to verify it's marked like the spare I have. Didn't Williams confirm they were still using their ectractor. It looks the same externally. This stock looks good! Current Super Grade stocks are lame, except the one shown in this post, so you really have to handpick them. That said, they aren't asking a price that could pay for a nice stick.

Stock looks identical to me. I've had it out once and really don't want to pull it out again. Then I have nothing to compare it to, just memory. All those Safari Expresses are gone.

Thanks. I'm keeping a word document with all the different nuances over the years and I try to capture stuff as it comes along like in your thread. There are several good documents on Winchester history, but they capture the general big changes but not the small stuff.

Going back to the old black MIM extractor, I found one of the old Gun Test articles back in 2000 where the Winchester Safari was tested and failed miserably to properly feed. It appears this can be traced to the MIM extractor. It also appears to be Winchester's responce to this issue by eventually replacing the MIM unit with the Williams extractor.

Best

Post the article, here or in a new thread. Good info.