Ray's experience with RE 15 had me testing the 350 Woodleigh PP in a 24" bbl recently manufactured Model 70. With Rem cases, Fed 215's and 67 gr. of RE-15, I averaged 2373 on a five-shot string.

The same load using CCI magnum primers averaged 2308. Both should do the job on Mr. Buff.

I have some more bullets on order and will test them with IMR 4350, which is my go-to powder on 300 Hornady range loads and 300 gr. A Frames.

The Hornadys show 2350 fps with 76.3 grs. of IMR 4350, the max load on the Hornady book and 2530 with 76.5 grs. on the A Frames, the max load in the Swift book. My rifle likes max loads and won't shoot worth a diddly squat downloaded.

So Jetdrv, so Federal 215 primers seem to ignite better than the CCI magnum primers based on your experience? I'll have to try them.

Chuck

Not extensive experience, for sure. Ten rounds loaded with 215's and twenty loaded with CCI's. I'll know more later when I get another batch of Woodleighs loaded up.

quote:

The Hornadys show 2350 fps with 76.3 grs. of IMR 4350, the max load on the Hornady book

What I really meant was, 2550, not 2350. Sorry about the typo.

My experienc with the CCI 250 and the 350 Woodleigh was the opposite of jetdrvr's. I actually got another 40fps or so more with the CCI's. I guess it just depends on the rifle. Good luck.

David

Guys,

I am having a little difficulty understanding why there is such an interest in 350 gr bullets in the .375 H&H. I am getting 2604 fps with a 300 gr Barnes TSX from a Winchester M70 SS Classic at very reasonable pressures ... and the penetration, weight retention and expansion is terrific.

Only one I've ever recovered was a lengthwise shot on a Hartebeast. Did the job.

Any real need for a 350 gr Woodleigh?

Probably not. The 300 gr. A Frame is a truly exceptional bullet and I've had great results with the 160 in 7mm Rem as well, but I'm going to try the 350 on buff next year, just for the hell of it. Atkinson swears by it and has tested them for the manufacturer.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:
Guys,

I am having a little difficulty understanding why there is such an interest in 350 gr bullets in the .375 H&H. I am getting 2604 fps with a 300 gr Barnes TSX from a Winchester M70 SS Classic at very reasonable pressures ... and the penetration, weight retention and expansion is terrific.

Only one I've ever recovered was a lengthwise shot on a Hartebeast. Did the job.

Any real need for a 350 gr Woodleigh?

Nope...jorge

I have been given to understand that the 350 has a greater chance of successful penetration to the vitals on a frontal chest shot on a buff than do the 300 grain offerings. So, yes, there is apparently a reson to use the Woodleigh. I'm going to give it a try and would like to hear some field reports from anyone who had used them.

300Grn Swifts with 350grn Woodleigh solids with the 375H&H, I could think of no better combo for Buffalo, using this calibre.

Some time back Paul Reed chronographed some Norma 416 Rigby with the Swift A-Frame and I chronographed the Norma 416 Rigby with the Barnes solids, both 400 grains, and we posted the results here. Basically the A-Frame in Paul's Ruger gave 2,300 fps and the Barnes Solid gave 2,200 fps in my CZ. As previously stated, if they are following CIP standards (and they have to) then you won't see the 2,400+ fps people think they should get. It seems the animals shot die anyway. Here's a link:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=531108927#531108927

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
300Grn Swifts with 350grn Woodleigh solids with the 375H&H, I could think of no better combo for Buffalo, using this calibre.

That'll work I still have some 300 grain Speer AGS solids, which are among the best ever made, so I'll use them. It's a toss up on the Woodleighs. If we're hunting herds, I'll use the Swift.

quote:

Originally posted by mstarling:


Any real need for a 350 gr Woodleigh?

I just re-read an article where Boddington adressed this issue. He basically said Robertson may be off a little bit in the interest in the heavier bullets for 375's. 300 grainers keeps the 375 versatile, while the 350 grainers make it more specialized. He did say it may be a good idea on a buffalo only hunt, but probably most of us do buffalo AND plains game safaris.

Yeah, no doubt on the versatility of the 300 grain. I've taken quite a bit of game from a Canadian whitetail to a buffalo with the A Frame and it never let me down. Provides both long and short range effectiveness. On a buff only hunt, I'll try the PRP's and see what happens.

FWIW Note: these work in my rifle, your results may vary.

67gr RL15 350gr WoodleighPP in M70 375H&H gave 2409fps ave with 4sd and less than 1MOA.
Same load and same results for the FMJ. If you're interested in finding out if these bullets work on buffalo, you can ask the buff in the picture below. Oh, sorry, you can't,he's dead!

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I have been given to understand that the 350 has a greater chance of successful penetration to the vitals on a frontal chest shot on a buff than do the 300 grain offerings. So, yes, there is apparently a reson to use the Woodleigh. I'm going to give it a try and would like to hear some field reports from anyone who had used them.

You can look up my huntreport titled A Month in Tanzania in the African hunt report forums. The short story is that neither buff was a one shot kill due to less than ideal shot placement but both were sick enough from a 350 gr Woodleigh that they were found lying down within a short distance. The one below was facing dead on and hit in the lower right jaw which sprayed teeth and bullet back through his vitals. We found him after 50 yards of followup on his knees.

I just re-read an article where Boddington adressed this issue. He basically said Robertson may be off a little bit in the interest in the heavier bullets for 375's. 300 grainers keeps the 375 versatile, while the 350 grainers make it more specialized. He did say it may be a good idea on a buffalo only hunt, but probably most of us do buffalo AND plains game safaris.

Caleb
This would only be a factor if you were hunting klipspringer as the diff in trajectory is negligible out to 250+ yards. I used the same 350gr Woodleigh load on Wildebeest (300yds)and waterbuck. Would have used it for impala, etc. but since Mrs Blacktailer let me use her 308, I used that on the smaller stuff.

Thanks. I'll check out your report with interest.

quote:

Any real need for a 350 gr Woodleigh?

Probably not. But let's face it, half the headache and heartache we put into this craziness isn't needed. We could just all go out and buy the Remmy, Federal or Hornady loads and go hunting, but we apparently have nothing better to do than poke powder and bullets in brass.

They're a cool bullet to try and reportedly are very affective as well. I have them for my 375 and 450's for my 416 Rigby. When I go after M'bogo, they'll be along with me.

David

MIke70560,
If you are satisfied with 2150 FPS, then that is the load for you..after all, its your safari and that load made the 404 popular, so I am sure it will work in any caliber that is shooting a big enough bullet...I have used the 404 at 2150 with 400 gr. Woodlieghs and it worked well enough...

However, I am more confident with a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS..that is my personal choice in big bores for dangerous game.

Is anyone shooting these 350g Woodleighs out of a 375 Wby mag or 375 Imp? It would seem that it would an awesome match at 2550 fps as long as the expansion wasn't too much.

Chuck

quote:

Probably not. But let's face it, half the headache and heartache we put into this craziness isn't needed. We could just all go out and buy the Remmy, Federal or Hornady loads and go hunting, but we apparently have nothing better to do than poke powder and bullets in brass.

Ain't that the truth?

I know somebody would eventually respond to that. It's all in fun. Hell, it keeps us busy when there's no hunting season. I'm gonna have to find some 400gr. 375 bullets now. I thought I was gonna be different by shooting the 350's, but now everybody's doing it. Damnit!!! Back to the drawing board.

David

I too met Doctari at the Reno event this past January. Either due to schedule or chemistry or possibly both, little pleasant occurred. These comments are based on my reading and understanding of his writings, not any knowledge I gained from personal contact.

The current heavy for the caliber and relatively low velocity school of thinking of which Doctari is a member and spokesman comes from a body of knowledge gained from his personal experience as a PH, communications between PHs and the history of hunting as these PHs understand it.

I believe the current position favoring relatively low velocity is intended to make the recoil manageable for the client hunter in order to increase the odds that the client hunter will be able to place the first shot properly.

Having placed the bullet properly, the next requirement is for a bullet that will penetrate to the required depth and do the damage necessary to deprive the brain of oxygen. The alternative is to penetrate to the brain and destroy the brain tissue.

The means to accomplish this task with a relatively low velocity bullet is a well constructed, heavy for the caliber bullet. Well constructed does include a modern, controlled expansion bullet as well as a solid. For example, Doctari’s recommended shot on a buffalo standing broad side will result in collapsing both lungs and destroying the top of the heart and/or the vein/artery system at the top of the heart. That will most effectively accomplish the task of depriving the brain of oxygen in a fairly rapid manner.

In order to prevent accidental wounding of a second animal, Doctari would prefer for the bullet to remain within the intended target animal. A relatively low velocity bullet, well constructed, heavy for the caliber controlled expansion bullet will accomplish the task of destruction and will likely remain within the animal on a broadside shot.

The second shot is often a raking shot that requires greater penetration. This can be accomplished by a solid bullet, heavy for the caliber, traveling at the same muzzle velocity as the expanding bullet. This leads to the traditional magazine load of an expanding bullet on top followed by solids.

The conclusion reached by Doctari and his fellow PHs is supported by history. The caliber and bullet combinations that proved effective in the cordite era were well constructed, heavy for the caliber, relatively low velocity bullet combinations shot from relatively heavy rifles. The current school of thinking is trying to duplicate that performance in modern weight rifles.

As an aside, I was amused to read that Norma’s claims for PH ammunition velocity fall short of actual measured performance. That too is historical! The velocity of much of the ammunition from the historical era that has been tested falls short of advertised claims by 100 to 150 fps.

If I was performing as a PH, I certainly would want a client hunter who could place the first shot properly. I would not want any accidental and perhaps unknown wounding of any animal other than the target animal. Further I would want the bullet to penetrate to the area intended and do the necessary damage.

Allegedly, the heavy for the caliber, relatively low velocity and well constructed bullet meets these requirements. The reason I say allegedly is that the conclusion was not reached by the “scientific†method of double blind experiments but rather by selective observation of a large body of experience.

The use of the normal or light for the caliber, relatively high velocity and well constructed bullet needs to answer these questions if it is to meet the requirements set forth earlier:

Can the client hunter place the first shot properly? Specifically, can the client hunter manage the recoil?

Will the bullet expand properly, penetrate to the intended area, do the necessary damage and remain within the animal to eliminate the possibility of wounding a second animal?
The last requirement can be mitigated somewhat by not taking a shot where wounding a second animal appears possible. This is not as easy as it may seem. Seeing the second animal in a herd or pride is not a sure thing.
I don’t have the weight in grains for the Norma load so I can’t calculate the Recoil Energy or Recoil Vel for the Norma round. What I’ve done is make the simplifying assumption that both the 410 and 450 round contain the same number of grains of powder. Here are the results:

416 Rigby 400 2350 63ft-lbs 16.5 fps 4913ft-lbs 126lb-f/s
410 2150 42ft-lbs 16.5 fps 4200ft-lbs 126lb-f/s
Norma Load 450 2150 46ft-lbs 16.5 fps 4620ft-lbs 138lb-f/s

As Doctari believes that the usual client hunter can handle somewhere between 40 and 60 ft-lbs of recoil, you can see that the Norma load, as advertised, minimizes recoil while giving an interesting level of performance. I’m also assuming that the Woodleigh bullets will perform satisfactorily at these velocities.
As a compairson the 416 Weatherby 400 2700 85ft-lb 23.5 fls 6000 ft lbs 154lb-f/s. This recoil is well beypond the 40 to 60 range set by Doctari

Any bullet longer than the 350 Woodleighs which are the same length as most of the 300 gr. bullets protrudes on powder space..I didn't have any luck with the 380 or whatever they were..

Bottom line is I have shot a hell of a lot of buffalo with both the RN and PP 350 gr. in the 375 and the 450 gr. .416 Woodleighs and they performed to perfection..I have never used a better bullet, and only few that were as good. The PP 450 gr. in a .416 Rem just knocks BIG bloody holes in Buffalo on both sides almost every time and blood spews like a leak in your water line.

We are all aware that their are other good bullets out there, but this thread is about the Woodleighs and what experiences have those that used them on game had...not on someones suspecions.

Chuck375,

Yes, I've been using the 350grPP in my 375WBY for several years now. My load is Win H&H brass fire formed to the WBY chamber, H4831sc, and Fed 215 primers. Velocity 10' from muzzle is just over 2500fps.
Absolutely the most accurate load I have found for this rifle. Off the bench, 3/4" groups are normal with 1/2" groups or smaller sprinkled in.
I hunt almost exclusively in Ak. and this level of power/penetration isn't needed IMO but the last five years I've found myself, more often than not, with this rifle and load in my hands. When a rifle shoots this good it's a real confidence boost.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Chuck
Very well done, it really answered the original question.

Yes, thank you i will save this reloading data, and try them out in my Sako Finnbear,

In the burning rate list from Vhitavuori Hodgon 4350 has the same burning rate as VVH N-150 and The Norma URP (Universal Rifle Powder) This one is easy to get in Norway. I start 5% lower than the loads given in this tread. Thank you guys

With standard bullets, don't you start loosing penetration over about 2500-2600 fps? I thought Ganyana argued for the 9.3 x 62 or, 9.3 x 74R, in that they both worked with much less recoil then the 375, yet still had adequate penetration to kill elephant?

It seems the 375, in a 10 pound CZ 550, like mine, comes up with this recoil with a 300 grain bullet, at 2650fps:Recoil Energy of 43 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps.

Now, Saeed uses a Barnes X at 2750 fps, IIRC, or the new Walter Hogs, similar in design, for just about everything, with no problems. Bullets hold together, flat shooting, etc. in the 404/375. Do you REALLY think the buffalo notice the difference between a Barnes X at 2650 out of a 375, or 2750 out of the 404/375? I suspect at much longer range then most buffalo are shot, perhaps...

I guess I just don't get the need for the 350 grain bullet, given the new monometal bullets.

I can see using an old style bullet that actually reduced penetration at higher velocity,
by increasing the bullet weight, you have a better chance of more controlled, and deeper penetration.

There are also two other wounding theories that may apply here. When pushed really fast, the Barnes X petals come off, causing a 300 grain bullet to become less, but, the petals can create more damage through hydrodynamic pressure, then a single projectile at lower velocity. If you are trying to do damage to heart and lungs, this is a factor to consider.

On the other side, there is another wounding theory that the actual overall surface area of the bullet affects the amount of damage it does to the target. Therefore, a large, bullet will do more damage due to it's overall surface area then the smaller bullet. I think this may apply better to handguns then rifles, but, I could be wrong.

Now, as for hitting what you are aiming at:
300 grains at 2750 is
Recoil Energy of 46 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 17 fps. all recoil stuff with 10 pound rifle.
Dropping to a 250 grain Barnes X at the same velocity gives you:
Recoil Energy of 36 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 15 fps.

Drop it to 2400 fps:
Recoil Energy of 28 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 13 fps.

Now, this Merkel double weighs about 7 pounds,
with

Recoil Energy of 41 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 19 fps.
That with a 285 at 2457.

To me, the 9.3 felt like a 22lr, recoil wise. My 375 gets a bit more recoil, but, I think stock design, recoil pad, and, stock and recoil pad area have a lot to do with that.

I just see this as dancing on the head of a pin. Has anyone had a 300 grain soft point not penetrate enough on buffalo?

I have shot DoubleTap's 375HH load with the 350gr Woodleigh @ 2450fps. It clocked 2455fps from my Model 70 and shot into an inch from my Lead Sled. Their load using 350gr. Woodleigh FMJ's shoot to the same POI as well.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.p...h=45&products_id=172

Excellent price too.

Thanks Jabs, I think the 350g Woodleigh at 2450 fps should be excellent and that is a great price! As I'm stepping up to a 470 Capstick after elk season this October, I won't have a chance to test the 350g bullets on brown bears or buffalo. I think these 350g Woodleighs from what I have seen at the range on inanimate objects penetrate well and pack a wallop!

Chuck

Great thread and no one has gotten pissy yet. This is what forums are for...

quote:

The current heavy for the caliber and relatively low velocity school of thinking of which Doctari is a member and spokesman comes from a body of knowledge gained from his personal experience as a PH, communications between PHs and the history of hunting as these PHs understand it.

Good advice and proven over time iro DG hunting (short-range work).
The heavier bullet will result in lower velocity,
and the lower velocity will ensure that the bullet stays within its threshold strength,
and that means bettter retained weight and better/intact mushroom forming with controlled expansion bullets.
That is the logic of the recipe.

Warrior

A lot of what ifs and theory going on here and some by folks that have not used the 350s or probably the 300 grs. otherwise they would know that both are suitable bullets for dangerous and non dangerous game..They both work very well indeed in properly constructed bullets, and to say one is better than the other is only folley..

I personally am really sold on the 350 gr. Woodleigh bullets and push them as fast as I can in a std. 375 and 416..I have also used the 270 and 300 gr. in the .375 and 450 and 400 gr. bullets in the 416 and 404 for years. I was well satisfied with most of them. Why not try something new on the market, I did and they worked great as does the latest addition to Nosler, the 400 gr. partition, its also a great bullet. GS Customs monolithics are fantastic and we will all miss the Northforks.

Bottom line is use what you want to use, either a monolithic, a bonded core, a partition, in either weight and drive it at 2100 or 2600 FPS and you will kill your buffalo with a properly placed shot. To say one is good and the other is not is just conversation without substance by those who lurk in the dark cornors of the internet!

I also think that the 375 H&H Mag has got it`s new life with the new and heavier bullets such 350 grs or 380 grs, It`s just like Mr Atkinson says if ou hit the Buff or whatever you hunt correctly it wil go down.

At the risk of offending the AR Savants...I agree with Doctari...there is no need for excess velocity unless for trajectory flattness reasons...any heavy bullet at moderate velocity for African Big Game at
"Bushvelt" distances are preferable to high velocities. Amreicans (I am one) are enamored with absolute higher velocities...when a teenager, I thought the same...bigger is better like the big tail fins on the 50's Cadillacs...but now at the tender age of 66 & 50 years of hunting, I agree with Doctari, Elmer Keith & the big slower bullet proponents.
I also believe with a lot of African PH/s that high velocity can be counterproductive.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
Tom from Cody...

For what it's worth, We have done the load development for four 375's using the 350gr Woodleighs. The Soft Points and FMJ's have been used on three buffalo, and they all died, some required a few shots to get their undivided attention. Two rhino have been shot with the 350gr FMJ but required a few shots to seal the deal once again. Two big elephant bulls have been shot, both missed the brain with the first shot, both dropped, got up and gapped it. Follow up shots ended the foot race. I'm not sure the extra 50grs means all that much but the idea sounds good. Interestingly enough one elephant bull was hit in the pants as he tried to run off with a 350gr Soft point by accident (the hunter grabbed the wrong round out of his wallet). They dug out the bullet and it was a perfect mushroom and drove in an amazing 14" of elephant hind end, very effective!. All the bullets left the muzzle at around 2350 fps, no shot was over 80 yards most were at 30 yards. What does all this prove, Frankly not much ! However if your expecting lighting bolt kills with 350gr Woodleighs in a 375 H&H you may want to bring a book to read until they run out of gas. Cheers !

Alf said,

"there is not a single shred of credible evidence that high velocity "kills better" than "just enough" velocity...

Andy says,

Don't expect miracles from the 350 grain .375.

After killing hundreds of american bison with both the 375 H and H and the 375 improved using almost every bullet available, I can tell you with absolute certainty that one shot kills, dead in their tracks (and I mean brain death, no eye reflex, stock still), are routine with the higher velocity ctg.

Alf, you need to get out of the office and hunt more!

A 300 grain .375 at 2550 fps will kill bison with one well placed shot. (That is, "just enough" velocity). And a one shot kill on bison is not that easy to achieve! (.338 w 200 grain Bitterroot or 210 nosler minimum).

But a 270 grain Power Point, or 275 grain Bitterroot at 3,000 fps kills them in their tracks, and just about anything else too!

(These are high expansion, high weight retention bullets that expand to 3/4 - 1 inch in diameter).

Same with american elk. A 300 weatherby w 180 Nosler will give an instantaneous kill within 100 yards if shot near the heart. (It completely destroys the heart and ruins most of the near leg as well). A 30-06 will kill them but they may run a 1/2 mile downhill into some god awful thicket you have to drag their carcass out of.

If you get one lung with a 30-06 you will have to track them for miles.

Not so with the Weatherby.

It sounds like most or all of Alf's hunting experience has been with low velocity ctgs.

That might be OK for a FMJ on elephant, but on bison sized animals on down, speed kills!

I am not suggesting anyone go out and shoot a buffalo w a 235 grain Speer. This applies to premium bullets which have been widely available for decades, including the conventional but excellent WW Power Point, nosler partition, all weights of Bitterroot, Swift, Trophy Bonded, North Fork, Kodiak, and higher SD Woodlieghs.

The 375 improved has a fortuitous combination of expanded frontal area and velocity that just plain kills bison.

Andy

As African hunters we sometimes get too carried away with penetration, I am as guilty as the next guy on this, and as a result we sometimes get too much penetration and tear hell out of the surrounding earth surface!

There are so many good bullets out there today I don't know why anyone would prefer one over the other but we all do for some reason, maybe it keeps our boredoom down, life in the US is too easy perhaps, but that seems to be changing and if "you know who" gets to be president then I doubt that we will have a need for good bullets..

In the meantime I will continue to use the wonderfull 350 gr. Woodleighs as I have shot so much game with them successfully and btw I like the look of the big old round nose bullet, it nostalgic you know! the PP is a better bullet however.

On buffalo you can't go wrong with Swifts, GS Customs, Northforks, Barnes X, Hornadys new bullets, or Woodleighs so how's that for filling your platter full?

Todays bullet makers have got a handle on making these projectiles, the rest is up to you, but bullets still get blamed for improper bullet placement and any bullet can fail due to sneaking by inspection and from a flaw, and anything made by man is infalable as for as I know...Some folks think every bullet must be a perfect mushroom like in the picture and thats not the case at all, its just prettier you see.

Good hunting....