What is the real difference in these cartridges? I know I could look it up but I know somebody here has a real opinion.

450 rigby is a 416 rigby necked up..

450 dakota is a I stand corrected, 416 rigby!!!
404 OPPS necked up, improved, and high pressure...

same results

460 weatherby is a 450 rigby with a belt and high pressure.

jeffe

[ 05-29-2003, 17:34: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

Hi Jeffe,
I think you'll find that the 450 Dakota is based on the 416 Rigby case and is the only on that is in their line.
Take care,
Dave

A slight correction here -

BOTH cartridges are based on the .416 Rigby. (All other Dakota cases are based upon the .404J) Both cartridges are ballistic twins. Loads, pressures, and performance are identical. The only difference is - Dakota brass is cheaper and easier to find.

.450 Rigby
Case Base - .5772"
Base to Shoulder - 2.3425"
Base to Neck - 2.4016"
Width at Shoulder - .5709"
Shoulder Angle - 40 degrees
Case OAL - 2.8937"

.450 Dakota
Case Base - .5820"
Base to Shoulder - 2.3240"
Base to Neck - 2.40"
Width at Shoulder - .560"
Shoulder Angle - 26 degrees
Case OAL - 2.90"

Jeff,

While the 7mm through .404 Dakota are based on the .404 Jeffery case the .450 Dakota is based on the .416 Rigby case. According to the cartridge drawing I have from Dakota the the max dimensions of the .450 are a .582" head dia., a .527" shoulder dia., a 30 degree shoulder, and a case length of 2.850". I don't think that the pressure should be to high as it is rated with a 500 gr. slug @ 2,450 fps.

470 Mbogo & Zero,

Damn you guys are fast!

I interviewed Art Alphin a few years back for an article I was doing. Art said that the .404 Jeff case didn't have enough brass left after necking up to .458" for the combination of factory chambers and factory ammunition. (Handloaders can and do solve this easily.)

So he went up a size in cartridge case, but according to Art the actual case he based the .450 Dakota on was the A-Square Excalibur case.

jim dodd

I guess Art overlooked the .450 Rigby case since it didn't have his name on it Funny that the Rigby and Dakota cases are almost identical. Hummmm

Zero Drift-I think Art did it before the Rigby
version was out.There were a half dozen earlier wildcats he got the idea from. Ed.

Ding, Ding, Ding - Ed you are correct. The .450 Rigby was introduced around 1995, and the .450 Dakota has been around since the late 1980's. However, the .416 Rigby case has been around since 1911 - well before Dakota or Art.

One word of caution. Do not try necking up Norma 416 Rigby brass for 450 Dakota in the CH 450 Dakota dies. My first attempt produced a split sizing die and a very unhappy owner (me ). On a positive note, you can use a 460 WBY full length sizer to neck size 450 Dakota .

Jim

The 450 Rigby and 450 Dakota are similar but they are not compatible. There is about .010" difference in the base diameter between these two cartridges. The 450 Rigby has a .590" base diameter while the 450 Dakota has a .580" base diameter. The difference in base diameters is enough for the 450 Rigby brass (or 416 Rigby for that matter) to run into a problem entering a 450 Dakota chamber. The 450 Dakota brass may work for the 450 Rigby chamber because it is smaller but I would not do it. No wonder somebody got a split 450 Dakota sizing die when sizing a 416 Rigby brass. Good luck.



[ 05-29-2003, 22:42: Message edited by: Mingo ]

Ming,

You are of course correct, however the batch of 416 brass that I was working with had a .5865" base diameter and would chamber in my rifle's "custom"(.5875" ) chamber. At that time there was little data commonly available on the 450 Dakota, and brass was hard to find. In an effort to get my rifle shooting, I tried brass which while matching my chamber, did not match my dies. This was one of life's little learning experiences, and I hope that others will learn from my mistake. DO NOT USE 416 BRASS TO FORM INTO 450 DAKOTA. (it can be done if 450 Dakota brass was to ever be discontinued, but would require the use of a special base sizing die that is thicker than the 7/8x14 dies normally used, to prevent splitting the die).

Jim

According to Quickload they list the pressure for the .450 Rigby at 47,862 psi., while the .450 Dakota is listed at 59,465 psi. It was for this reason alone that I choose to go with the Rigby. Lawdog

Lawdog - Check that again??? There is not more than a few thousandths difference between the two cases. Look at the case measurements. The same powder charge weights produce almost identical performance and ballistics.

The pressure differences you are quoting are about the same pressure spreads between the .416 Remington and the .416 Rigby. This is as a result of considerable case capacity differences between the two cartridges. However, the .450 Rigby and .450 Dakota are ballistic twins.

Thanks, I knew I could count on this board! The Truth is Out There!
I guess I'll keep my 450 Dakota.

[ 05-30-2003, 08:03: Message edited by: Dr. Duc ]

Zero Drift--The difference in pressure may be
stick powder in Dakota(higher peak pressure),
and right DB powder in Rigby(lower peak pressure
but more energy), to have same velocity.What powder is in factory loads? Be nice to know.Ed.

A mate of mine is happy I showed him this thread as he was tossing up between a Rigby and Dakota on a CZ. We automatically thought that 416 Rigby brass could be used for the Dakota.

Don't you just love 460s

Mike

No beef here but I cannot understand the extreme spread in pressures as reported by LawDog. Unfortunately, I do not use Quickload so I cannot check this for myself. However, physics dictates that when the volume and shape of two pressure vessels (cartridges) are near identical, the pressures generated from burning the same powder type and charge weights while performing the same workload, must generate near identical pressure responses. This may be a glitch in the software due to improper case dimensions. In any event, there should not be more than 3% difference between them. 11,603 psi is a considerable difference.

Regardless, any difference in pressure level between these two cartridges should be a non issue if you are a reloader. With that said, you should not be picking one of these two awesome cartridges based on Quickload calculation alone. The 450 Rigby is a better cartridge mainly because there are more than one source for brass. The only brass available for the 450 Dakota is from Dakota Company. Again, don't even think about using 416 Rigby brass for the 450 Dakota. Have fun guys!

Mingo - Agreed, however, have you priced Dakota brass VS Rigby brass lately???

The only reason why I asked is many cite the cost and single source for Dakota brass as a negative. I have 120 cases set aside from the same lot. My childern's children will be enjoying my .450 Dakota with no worries about brass availability. If my memory serves, I paid $1.50 each.

The .450 Dakota has gained a lot of traction over the past few years for dangerous game hunting. I am finding more and more PH�s using the cartridge for DG backup. Accordingly, brass will continue to be made for the cartridge because demand will continue.

In any event, both the Rigby and Dakota design solves the problem with that goofy radius shoulder and needless belt of the .460 Weatherby

Zero,

I think for many shooters there is a fear of brass that is not Winchester, Remington, Norma etc. and this fear also applies to the Lazzeroni calibres.

I think I read sometime ago that Dakota brass (or may have been Lazzeroni) was now being made by Norma.

Has anyone checked the dimensions of the 404 based Dakotas.....wonder if they can't be made from 404 brass.

Mike

45 Lapua has got them all beat, on every issue.

The factory loading for the rigby and the dakotas are not the same, the rigby is about 2300 while the dakota is about 2450. Therefor you have a pressure difference. If a handloader puts the same ammount of powder in both he will get similar velocities and pressures.

Right?

the 450 dakota is about 2 bucks each on midway...

416 rigby is about the same....

no price for 450 rigby.....

I have a 458 lott barrel.. and a "new" 1917 remington enfield... and I wonder if either one would clean up that chamber, cleanly?
(just got the enfield at the gunshow)
jeffe

Bwana-be,
To my way of thinking, the maybe 15-20 grain case capacity added by the 450 Dakota and Rigby over the 2.700" 45/.338 Lapua Magnum is no great thing.

I am thinking one can get 500 grain bullets up to 2400 fps at less than 50K psi with this case. What more could one possibly ask for than this? Then how about a 350 grain load at 2700 fps for plains game, and thus a one rifle safari.

The 45 Lapua will beat all others on brass quality, and the cartridge cases can be had for $1.40 each.

The 45 Lapua will beat all others on feeding and extracting mechanics.

I was tempted to build a 450 Rigby or Dakota to replace a 460 Wby. The 45 Lapua is smarter all around.

338 Lapua brass is more readily availble. Stamp or engrave a "4" and a "5" on the left and right of the Lapua sheild, and you have properly head stamped brass for the 45 Lapua, to match the barrel of your rifle: 45/.338 Lapua Magnum.

First I must go do some 470 Mbogo loads with RL15. Limited time to play, so many toys!

JEFFEOSSO, I bet you either of those would cleanly rechamber that Lott.
They're both bigger at the back, middle and end, and longer, than the Lott.
Go for it!
Dagaron, what did you build that Mbogo on?
And who'd you have do it?

Bwana-be,
A local gunsmith named Rusty McGee, a mechanical engineer turned full-time gunsmith, did a great job of putting a Pac-Nor stainless barrel on a BBK-02 action in a laminate stock for my 470 Mbogo. I hope to fire some full loads and finish sighting the express sights this weekend. Rusty also did my 45/.338 Lapua from a CZ 550 .458 WinMag conversion. What fun!