Thinking about building a 450 Ackley.

Already have a 458 Win and a 458 Lott.

Barrel is ordered and on the way.

Will order a reamer next week, probably a Manson.

Might use the action below, with a lot more machining:



Maybe making it look somewhat like this one from BSA, but with a drop box:



Or one of these:



Anyone have a 450 Ackley? Tell me about it.

Talk to robgunbuilder, he says it is a thunderstick.

I had one for a while, 22" barrel 1-10 twist, built on an MRC H&H length action. Fed fine, was plenty accurate but low 2300s was about max with 500 grainers so it really didn't do anything more than the Lott that I had.

I did come to prefer the slightly shorter OAL of the Lott in a standard 3.600" mag box though. With wide flat nosed bullets, the diagonal OAL of the Ackley would hang up at max length. Minor point and moot if your box is slightly longer or rounds slightly shorter. I loaded the Ackley to maximum everything as that was it's purpose.

Also test fired one round of Win Mag and Lott in the Ackley and they were basically full power and fed fine through my rifle.

Yes, I have two of them. BTW I built them way before the Lott ever became commercialized. I actually wanted a Watt but couldn't find a reamer back then. One is built on a switch barrel rem 700 and the other on a M70.Both guns are home brew and have pac nor 26 inch barrels. I think very highly of the round. You can hit the magic 2400fps with it with a 500gr bullet in a 26 inch barrel and yes you can also shoot .458 wins and lotts in the Ackley chamber. Like other Ackley rounds it's surprisingly accurate too. It easily beats my .458 Lott for max velocity and kills Buff resoundingly. No flies on this cartridge! I always enjoyed the fire forming process using .375 H&H brass and seeing a Ackley case pop out of the chamber. You'll like it!

Basically what Robgunbuilder said.

A mate of mine had one and I had quite a bit of involvement with it....was done on a BRNO.

One of the things I like about it is better for reloading being a bottle neck case. Good for powder too, especially compared to 458. Will run real well with 2208 (Varget) and also the 3031 burn rate.

Of course the 460 Wby and 450 Dakota/Rigby will do the 2300-2400 with what amounts to reduced loads.

Leaving the 460 to one side, if I was getting a 45 tomorrow I would take the 450 Ackley every day over the 458 Win/Lott.

I had one built by Griffin & Howe on a pre-64 Model 70 some years ago. Great caliber, as you can use the 458 Win, Lott, Watts, or Ackley, as it's based on a full-length 375 case, where the others are trimmed to shorter lengths. Wish I still had that one :-(

I love mine.

Just received it a couple of weeks ago.
It started out as a Winchester M70 in .458. Had it worked over and added a NECG front sight and Wiesner rear sight.

I'm waiting for a McMillian Safari stock and Sunny Hill drop mag. before starting serious load development.

^Very nice rifle!

This might be a better route to a .458 for me, vs. a kevlar stocked CZ + AHR's #2 package.


Who did the work if you don't mind me asking?

If there is a way to hold 4 down, then I would be strongly tempted to go this route instead.

Bruno's in PA.
He's has a page. Specializes in small bore competition rifles but does some big bored on the side.

He did my 375 WBY conversion from 375 H&H.
Does precision work for competition rifles.

I want a drop mag for 4. That's why the McMillian stock and Sunny Hill mag box.

I like the Ackley and the Watts better than the Lott for all the above mentioned reasons other than the Lott has now gone commercial, so that's probably the better choice for the masses IMO..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I like the Ackley and the Watts better than the Lott for all the above mentioned reasons other than the Lott has now gone commercial, so that's probably the better choice for the masses IMO..

That's right in the sense of buying a factory rifle and also dies.

But as a rebarrel etc. and being prepared to pay extra for dies then the 450 Ackley has it and you could fire 458 Lott ammo in the 450 Ackley or 458 Win.

that's a fact Michael!

I have hunted with a PH in Zim 5 different times who shoots a 450 Ackley. He loves it. I have shot it a few times. I liked it.

Collen is a gun nut. Really into all the details. If you want to contact him to make inquiries, PM me. I will send you his e mail address.

When I took my 450 Ackley to Zim I marked the barrel with 375H&H/ 450 Ackley using a Hand Stamp. My cartridges were all made from 375 H&H brass while they looked at my gun and cartridges it was never an issue.
The 450 Ackley remains one of my all time favorites and gets shot about 100 times more than my 505 Gibbs for example. Just plain fun, kinda sexy and oh so versatile!

Here is an honest question.

What does a 450 Ackley give you that a 458 Lott doesn't??

I have already have a 458 Lott and have been thinking hard about building a 450 Rigby or 450 Dakota.

And another question,... does the 450 Ackley have any advantages over the 450 Rigby/Dakota??

Thanks in advance for the information!!

TBD

Why the Ackley over the Lott?

For me,

It has a straight neck. I love shooting the hard cast 500-550 grain bullets at around 2000 FPS for practice.
The case is actually very easy to form with 20 grs. of Bullseye, cream of wheat, wad of toilet paper and a wax plug.
Shoot straight in the air and out comes a perfect Ackley ready to go.
Grab 50-100 cases from a specialty company that has the proper head stamp and your good for life hunting anywhere.

For practice at home, any full length belted case can become a .450.
I can hit 2300 FPS with a 500 grain with the same pressure a Lott uses at 2200-2250 FPS.
If needed, I can fire a Lott and Win mag. with out any problems.
Mine is very accurate. It is easier to load than the Win Mag. Because the 450's straight neck naturally aligns the bullet better for seating.

From reading why Lott came up with this round other than the Ackley which already existed, I can't say.
Maybe the 2.85" length?
That is an easy fix. I cut mine to 2.800" anyways. It loads in the mag easier and gives nothing up in ballistics.
Could it be the name????

Factory rifles. Yes, but I don't buy them I have them built. So that is not an issue.
Factory ammo. Yes, but I don't buy them. I make them.

And, loading a magazine with Lotts in my .450. The .450 doesn't know the difference. Shoots them just the same.

Can 458 Win Mag be shot in a 450 Ackley??

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Blue Devil:
Can 458 Win Mag be shot in a 450 Ackley??

Yes.

Plus over 458 Win/Lott is not a straight case but has a neck. So one plus of that is won't ever see a bulge in the case where the bullet base is in the case.

The bigger capacity of the 450 Ackley over the 458 Lott is with the bigger case capacity and sharper shoulder it will do better with powders like Varget and lighter than 500 grain bullets

The plus over the 450 Dakota/Rigby is for reduced loads and because of the smaller case capacity. The 460 Wby is more difficult again because of the .75" distance to the rifling.

In a nutshell the plus of the 458 Win/Lott is factory rifles and cheaper and more readily available dies.

Actually if ease of developing reduced loads is factored in and using 2350 f/s with 500 grainers as "the number" then I think the best is the 460 G&A or the 458 Ultra or 458 RUM.

They will do the 2350 f/s with 500 grainers in a walk but at the same time easy to work with reduced loads.

Hey, check out this treatise on the 450 Ackley by our own Roy Vincent.
Both scholarly historical and practical knowledge abound here:

http://huntinglegends.co.za/450-ackley-magnum/

quote:

Originally posted by Colt Commander:
I love mine.

Just received it a couple of weeks ago.
It started out as a Winchester M70 in .458. Had it worked over and added a NECG front sight and Wiesner rear sight.

I'm waiting for a McMillian Safari stock and Sunny Hill drop mag. before starting serious load development.

MAN that rifle is beautiful to my eyes!

Ordered the reamer yesterday.

Thanks for all the comments gents!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hey, check out this treatise on the 450 Ackley by our own Roy Vincent.
Both scholarly historical and practical knowledge abound here:

http://huntinglegends.co.za/450-ackley-magnum/

Great article Ron. Thanks for posting

My pleasure, Mike.
Roy Vincent has done a lot with the .450 Ackley, and he and son Alan are still using it despite Roy's own .458-caliber wildcats on the 404 Jeffery case, the .450 Vincent Long and Short.
Interesting passing mention of all the different versions, from late 1940s to early 1950s, including the .450 Barnes Supreme, by Fred N. Barnes of the original Barnes Bullets company.
Buhmiller, Ackley, Barnes, and James Watts were all working independently and consulting one another about their ideas, needs for barrels and bullets, etc.

I know the .450 Barnes Supreme and .416 Barnes Supreme were advertised in a pamphlet by 1949.
Something very much like the .416 Remington was around in 1949.

My first wildcat rifles were the .450 Barnes Supreme and .416 Barnes Supreme, built for me in 1987 by Willis Fowler in Anchorage Alaska. Seems he had this pair of old wildcat reamers and a couple of Whitworth actions and a couple of barrels he wanted to use.
He also provided the RCBS reloading dies ready-made for these ancient wildcats, and some basic brass headstamped only "Barnes Supreme."

That is why I don't have a .450 Ackley, since I have the nearly identical .450 Barnes Supreme.

I have only 100 pieces of "Barnes Supreme" basic cylindrical brass,
50 each sized and fire-formed for .450 BS and .416 BS.
No BS.


Saeed has some pretty hot load data for the .450 Ackley here:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450ackleymag.html




And the 450 Vincent Long and Short:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450vl.html

http://www.accuratereloading.com/450vs.html




Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:
Ordered the reamer yesterday.

Thanks for all the comments gents!

Wow! Reamer arrived today. 13 days from time of order, and it was not in stock.

okay, I will ask.

What is the actual powder capacity of the Ackley VS the Lott, using once or twice-fired fully formed brass?

I have the "Handloaders Manual of Cartridged Conversions", and it says:

1. 450 Ackley Magnum 114.91gr capacity
2. 450 Barnes Supreme 113.01gr "
3. 450 Watts Magnum 108.63gr "
4. 458 Lott not listed, but other sources say 110-112gr capacity.
5. 460 G&A 119.99gr capacity
6. 458 RUM 121gr (measured five of mine)van der Walt says 119.5


So, if these figures are correct, and please feel free to correct me if your measurements are different to any degree; is there any worthwhile advantage to any one over the rest?

Individual preferences aside, that is.

I have a Lott, recently acquired here, and a 458RUM, and old Chrony says less than 100fps difference.

I am liking the RUM more and more, since it does not have a belt.

Roch

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
okay, I will ask.

What is the actual powder capacity of the Ackley VS the Lott, using once or twice-fired fully formed brass?

I have the "Handloaders Manual of Cartridged Conversions", and it says:

1. 450 Ackley Magnum 114.91gr capacity
2. 450 Barnes Supreme 113.01gr "
3. 450 Watts Magnum 108.63gr "
4. 458 Lott not listed, but other sources say 110-112gr capacity.
5. 460 G&A 119.99gr capacity
6. 458 RUM 121gr (measured five of mine)van der Walt says 119.5


So, if these figures are correct, and please feel free to correct me if your measurements are different to any degree; is there any worthwhile advantage to any one over the rest?

Individual preferences aside, that is.

I have a Lott, recently acquired here, and a 458RUM, and old Chrony says less than 100fps difference.

I am liking the RUM more and more, since it does not have a belt.

Roch

I do not really know, like you, I will have to check my references.

I am building the 450 as a nostalgia project and a tribute to Parker Ackley: I never will have a use for the darn thing, it will be a safe queen. African Hunting is out of the question for me, I just like big bore rifles. Already have a couple of 458 Win and a Lott.

The main thing I like about the Ackley is the straight neck.

I have three 458 barrels waiting for a project. Next one may be a 458 Ultra as I have a case of 500 new 375 Ultra brass just waiting for a rifle.

I would call it by the old name: 460 G&A.

I built a rifle for a friend of mine some time back..Roy Vincent did the metal work and chambered it to the 458 Vincent Long, I did the stock work..I got to file in the sights and do the load work up on it..It was a pretty impressive rifle, super accurate but I gotta tell ya if I ever build another one, the owner is going to have the job of filing in the sights..

As much as I like the Ackley, Vincent and especially the Watts, I think the 458 Lott, inasmuch as its gone commercial, is probably the best bet for most folks that feel the need for that kind of power..The other Wildcat calibers are for a certain gang of seveal hundred who love to tinker! Of which I am one from time to time. Its a costly endeavor for sure.

I think "because I want one..." is the answer.
They seem to be as alike as a litter box full of dalmation puppies.

I have both the 460 G&A (on the RUM case) and a Lott, a rechambered 458 Win Mag.

Rich

RIP,

I have 100 NORMA cylindrical cases, still in the old boxes sitting out in the gunroom. If you are interested, I'd make you a good price.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I think "because I want one..." is the answer.
They seem to be as alike as a litter box full of dalmation puppies.

I have both the 460 G&A (on the RUM case) and a Lott, a rechambered 458 Win Mag.

Rich

Uh, yep, just because I want one!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I built a rifle for a friend of mine some time back..Roy Vincent did the metal work and chambered it to the 458 Vincent Long, I did the stock work..I got to file in the sights and do the load work up on it..It was a pretty impressive rifle, super accurate but I gotta tell ya if I ever build another one, the owner is going to have the job of filing in the sights..

As much as I like the Ackley, Vincent and especially the Watts, I think the 458 Lott, inasmuch as its gone commercial, is probably the best bet for most folks that feel the need for that kind of power..The other Wildcat calibers are for a certain gang of seveal hundred who love to tinker! Of which I am one from time to time. Its a costly endeavor for sure.

I guess I fit as I love to tinker.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
RIP,

I have 100 NORMA cylindrical cases, still in the old boxes sitting out in the gunroom. If you are interested, I'd make you a good price.

Rich

PM a price and I will give it some thought.

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
RIP,

I have 100 NORMA cylindrical cases, still in the old boxes sitting out in the gunroom. If you are interested, I'd make you a good price.

Rich

PM a price and I will give it some thought.

Thanks, Rich, but I have plenty of Hornady basic nowadays, just doesn't say "Barnes Supreme" on the headstamp.
Woodhunter, have at it.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by WoodHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
RIP,

I have 100 NORMA cylindrical cases, still in the old boxes sitting out in the gunroom. If you are interested, I'd make you a good price.

Rich

PM a price and I will give it some thought.

Thanks, Rich, but I have plenty of Hornady basic nowadays, just doesn't say "Barnes Supreme" on the headstamp.
Woodhunter, have at it.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
NRA Life Benefactor and Beneficiary
https://home.nra.org/

Thanks, I will take them.

I had a 450 Ackley built in 1972. I had a Remington 30-S action that I sent to P.O. Acley. He installed the barrel and did a bit of action work to improve the feeding and reliability. When I received the barreled action, I delivered it to Gary Goudy for a stock. Gary had a very nice piece of Bastogne walnut that would be perfect for this rifle. He finished the stock in about one year and it was a thing of beauty. I could not wait to get the range to test fire the new rifle. I had loaded up some rounds with a couple of different powders and I was of to the range. The rifle was very accurate with any of the loads that I had put together. The recoil was a bit stiff but tolerable. A few years later, I let a friend talk me out of the rifle and I wish that I had it back. An excellent cartridge and a beautiful rifle.

They are all pretty neat...

WANT IS THE SOUL OF THE EARTH TO A GUNNUT! NO OTHER JUSTIFICATION EVEN MAKES SINCE.

I had a 450 Ackley built by A-Square on an Enfield. They called it the 'Hannibal'

Great cartridge. Piss poor gun, but that's not the 450s fault!

Unless one is a all out gun nut crank, short of brains and lacking a full time job and plans on a once in a life time African DG hunt or two, and he already has a 458 Lott, I would suggest spending all that "conversion money" on ammo and practice my shooting..

All things considered, the buffalo will never know the difference nor will the shooter, then again there are so many who will never comprehend this post!