Just got back from the second session with my new .375 H&H (Winchester). It wasn't pretty. Oh, the rifle worked fine, but the nut on the trigger didn't have it together. This is the first rifle bigger than a .30-'06 I've ever owned or fired.

Having gotten (what I thought was) belted pretty hard last time, I was afraid of it this time. I warmed up with the '06, and I was doing real well. I was even able to watch the bullet impact a steel plate about 200 yards away, through the scope. I thought my recoil control was pretty good.

There were 3 things I noted going wrong (in addition to the flinch I was developing ):

1) Pain. With every shot. I had the toe in the pocket, like I've been taught, but I still got it. Am I just a wimp? I was wearing nothing but a T-shirt (okay, pants and shoes, too ).

2) It was breaking my firing grip. For an extreme example of what I'm talking about, watch any of the .577 T-Rex videos. Mine isn't nearly as bad, but it shouldn't be happening at all. Just need more grip strength?

3) Firing offhand, it was rocking me back onto my heels. When I used the weight-forward shotgunner's stance, my face got belted.

In short, I felt like the rifle was controlling me instead of the other way around. Is there some special technique for shooting big bores I'm not aware of? I've watched the videos of Canuck and his buddies yukking it up with the .500 A-Square, etc., and it looks like they're firing .308s.

A lot of recoil is in the shooters mind. For some shooters, a .270 is in their comfort zone & the 06 starts to kick them around a bit. If you shoot the 06 well w/ 180gr pills, then you can transition to a .300 or .338 w/ little work. The guys already shooting .300's will have little trouble adjusting to a .375 w/ proper weight & stock design.
Try shooting some handloads w/ 235 or 250-260 gr bullets @ about 2500fps. You'll find these pleasent loads & let you to get used to the rifle. Then shoot a few factory 270-300gr after each session. You'll get the hang of it. I would also wear a bit more than your t-shirt ( pants, w/ shoes optional). A PAST recoil pad is a big help in the beginning or off the bench. Even a padded shotgun type shooting shirt is better than a t-shirt. Good bench technique helps alot. Sit as upright as you can at the bench, or better yet, don't use the bench at all after you get sighted in. Good luck, big bores are fun!

Hold it in tight and practice, practice...It will come right in time.

JJohnston,

Firstly, rifle recoil always looks a lot less in photos and video, such as Canuck's video of the 500 A Square.

The good news is that everyone can learn to shoot a 375 OK. It is once you get above 375 that things start to change somewhat.

An observation that I have made at our rifle range and this may or may not appy to you, is that those shooters who look on the 375 as a cannon seem to have the trouble with the recoil.

I have seen shooters who have not used bigger than their 375 having no trouble at all but they have been shooters with lots of interest in big bore rifles and therefore see the 375 for what it is....just a medium powered general purpose rifle.

The 375 was originally meant to be just that..a general purpose rifle to be use on anything and to be used everyday.

Mike

JJohnston,

I just bought my first 375 H&H and was a little apprehensive about the recoil at first. A big bore shooting friend told me to do two things before I even shot the thing. First, put a Pachmyr Decelerator recoil pad on it. Second, get a PAST recoil sheild (goes over your shoulder and costs about $25. they have three levels. sound like you need the super magnum).

With those two things in place, I shot the gun for the first time last weekend. I shot 20 rounds of 300 gr. bullets and was not as sore as I am after a round of skeet! No flinching either. At 60 yards with open sights, I put all twenty rounds into a space the size of my palm.

I know I won't take the PAST recoil shield into the field, but I won't need it there (adrenaline and dynamic position, etc.) But it sure helps off the bench.

Good luck. Don't give up on it.

Kynadog

My Advice, and I'm serious, is to find someone with a bigger rifle and shoot that for a while. I used to have a 17 pound .50BMG that was absolutely brutal in the recoil department. My .416 has, therefore, never bothered me.

Regards,

JohnTheGreek

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JJohnston:

Hi JJohnston,
Try having a Pachmayer triple X magnum recoil pad installed on your rifle. This pad is quite a bit more effective than the regular decelorator and you'll find the Past pad won't be necessary in conjuction. The videos that Canuck posted were both taken while he was shooting my rifles which are both equiped with the above pad. Stock design has a lot to do with recoil transfer as well. The triple X pad slows recoil velocity as well as reduce felt recoil. John the Greek's idea is good also. Try other big bores that have higher recoil energy and try the pad.

470 Mbogo

JJohnston,

Don't be discouraged. 375's have some bite to them. My 375 H&H is a factory Win M70 and it hurts every now and then (usually when I lose my concentration at the bench). The reason is primarily the recoil pad...the factory one is pretty stiff. I have a Pachmayr Decelerator on my 416 Taylor, and while it definately kicks harder, it is pretty easy on my shoulder. The Triple X decelerators on 470 Mbogo's rifles were way better yet. In fact, after shooting his 500 A-square 10 times at one session, my shoulder was about the only part of my body that didn't hurt.

If you improve the recoil pad, you'll be a long ways toward solving your problem. Pain is what causes the flinch, and a good recoil pad can cure the pain. You'll probably learn to enjoy getting shoved around if you can cure the pain.

The PAST recoil pad makes a big difference too. I use one on my 375 and bigger rifles when shooting from the bench. If I don't my accuracy will eventually deteriorate. Using the Magnum pad I can comfortably and accurately shoot them all day. I am not embarrassed to put that pad on after a few shots anymore.

I love shooting those big bores, but you can take it from me, the videos don't adequately represent what you feel! Its easy to make it look good when you just grip the rifle as tight as you can, grit your teeth, close your eyes and pull the trigger.

Shooting something bigger is definately a good way put things in perspective. It sounds funny but it is true!

Keep on shootin' that bad boy,

Canuck

[ 08-26-2002, 08:24: Message edited by: Canuck ]

Canuck,

The mental part is a very big issue. I am 54 and had my first 375 at about age 20. Over those 35 years there has just about always been at least one 375 here. At the moment it is a Rem 700 that was a 416 Rem and now has a match grade 375 barrel on board.

However, throughout the years I have often broken out in a rash of practicality and boat loads of 270s and 308s appear. During these phases the 375s seem real big.

Then I also have a rash that regularly breaks out for the big 378 Wby case. At the moment it is the 416 Wby. When this rash of impracticality breaks out the 375 begins to feel like it is only suitable for indoor use

Mike

[ 08-26-2002, 08:33: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

JJ,
My take on this is as follows:
1. That rifle may be too light. I shoot a .375 that fully tricked out weighs 9.25 lbs.
2. That rifle may be too short! One of the reasons I'm going to try to take some stockmaking courses is that my .450 Rigby is too short and needs restocking. It has too much drop, too but that's another story.
3. You definitely need a shoulder pad. I either use a ANSWER pad under my shooting jacket when shoot off the bench or a PAST pad. If the caliber is big enough, I use both!
4. As stated before, make sure that you have an absolutely premium recoil pad on the rifle. That will be a great chance to lengthen it if necessary.
5. Follow the forgoing shooter's excellent advice.

If you lived near me,we'd go out and I'd let you touch one off from my 8 3/4 pound Browning 458 loaded to the hilt with 500 grain Hornadys.After that experience,a 375 seems like a real pussy cat.

If you reload; begin using 235 grainers with the slowest powders. Then work up to normal loads in the 235 grainers.
Now use 250's or 265's and slowest powders, again work up.
Use 300 and 350 grainers with H870, H1000, H5010, XMR8700 and work up to quicker powders i.e., normal loads. By now you'll be used to it.
When working up this ladder always have a couple of loads from the next rung up. Fire 10-15 of your low loads for as many sessions as you can work in a couple of weeks then some from the next rung. This is the way I learned to tolerate the kick of my Hannibal in .500 A-Sq. Takes time but once there...

Ditto the Triple Mag pad. Brownells carries them.

Just a question: Do you have a scope on the .375? The new Win stocks are designed for a scope, and will absolutely hammer your face with iron sights. Add a scope (ANY scope!), and it will be much less annoying to shoot. I'd pretty well blown my gun budget for a while and ended up trying a REALLY cheap scope on my new Win .375, and couldn't believe the difference. I hated it before, but I love it now. Twenty shots through it isn't even annoying. My biggest problem is I need more time to load ammo for it. I think I've found my all-around gun.

Pretty sad though when the rings (Talley) cost twice as much as the scope...

Now, if it's actually the rearward push that's the problem, then other measures are called for. Add weight, for instance. Consider a heavy scope, for example. Eight ounces extra will make a BIG difference in recoil. I found the stock recoil pad to be sufficient on mine (Safari Express; I'm a lefty).

The other folks have good suggestions. Working up from lighter to heavier loads will help acclimatize you, though it's time consuming. Shooting something bigger will also help. I remember how much recoil I thought a 9mm had until I got a .45. Then I thought that was bad, until I got a .44 Mag. Etc. And I always ended up shooting the "smaller" gun much more consistently after I started shooting a larger one as well. But none of these will help enough, if the rifle doesn't fit you in some way. The stock may be too short or too long, or it may need a scope. The problem may not be you, it may be the combination of you and the gun.

Good luck, and don't give up. I was very frustrated with my first .375 experience, but the folks here rightfully diagnosed the problem (stock designed for scope). It's a sweetheart now. You'll be very happy when you get this sorted out.

Pertinax

[ 08-26-2002, 14:43: Message edited by: pertinax ]

JJohnston

Personally I like to limit shooting big bores at the bench.

Sight it in, build up some loads if handloading and then forget the bench.

Your problem is very simple

I was wearing nothing but a T-shirt

All this talk about using bigger bores to get used to it, is OK to get used to shooting in most field positions, but a 375 will hurt if shooting enough rounds from a bench wearing only a T-shirt.

I did just the same thing when I first got my 375 and fired 25 rounds through it wearing a light shirt. Ended up with a very serious bruise. And it doesn't matter how much a "he-man" you are with your latest .900 Stegarsaurus, if you are getting serious bruising and often enough it will be doing damage.

So its easy - wear a jacket and I just drape a towel underneath on my shoulder for some extra padding. If its hot, take it off when not needed. Buy a commercial product if you want. When hunting wear whatever. When you have an animal in front of you, you won't feel the recoil.

I think the key to not developing a flinch is to limit time at the bench. Use some rifles lighter in between loads as well. In any case I prefer to practice in real hunting positions at game-like targets (even better if they have hair or fur), not sitting at a dinner table shooting at circles.

[ 08-26-2002, 14:49: Message edited by: NitroExpress.com ]

1. Sounds like the stock does not fit your body geometry.

2. When shooting off the bench, fold up a hand towel and place it between the rifle butt and your shoulder. There is no reason to suffer.

JJohnston,

I recently went through a similar situation. Had never shot anything larger than 30-06 before I got a 375H&H in March. The first 20 rounds were painful to my shoulder and face and probably 10" group. I kept going to the range and shooting 20 to 30 rounds every 1-2 weeks. I shoot 300 grain full loads now and enjoy it. Groups are under 1.5" at 100 yards as I work up my handloads. It just took time to build up tolerance and technique or whatever you want to call it.

PS: My gun has a decelerator pad. I have never used any other padding and just wear a t-shirt.

[ 08-26-2002, 20:30: Message edited by: DrScott ]

JJohnston:

Start with the Past pad and a good recoil pad, add some lighter loads to practice with, such as the reduced loads listed in the Speer manual, and get a knowledgable bigbore shooter to help with position.

In my opinion, the techniques of shooting position and recoil management with a bigbore are a little different from lighter calibers. With the larger guns, I find it works better to ride the recoil rather than fighting it. Don't worry if you are rocked back a bit on your heels. However, a firm grip on the forend is a must.

If you live near Sacramento, and want some help and coaching, e-mail me, and I'll meet you at the Sacramento Shooting Center.

If you want a ligt recoiling load for practicing with the .375H&H, try this: Sierra 200gr FN with either 70gr Norma 201 or 71,5gr Norma 202. In my rifle (SAKO75) this load, with C.O.L.=85mm and RWS5333 primers, does close to 3000fps with excellent precision (15mm/100m). Recoil is not much worse than a 30-06 with heavy bullets .
Once you can shoot this load well, start working your way up to full powered hunting loads.

JJ,

Much good advice is posted above. I use the PAST Magnum Pad, and it will about double the number of rounds you can shoot from the bench without getting into the flinch zone.

After you shoot, you should do some off-hand dry fire practice by snap shooting at some mark down range. Bring the rifle to shoulder at the pace you would use in the field, and squeeze it off when the sights bear. Do this 5 to 10 times. The no recoil session seems to work to reset the nervous system to the no recoil condition.

I learned this last technique from John Gannaway, a rifle master who teaches at Gunsite. It works...

jim dodd

Expanding on Jim's suggestion to include dry firing, I have found that if I do start to get a little "flinchy" or "punchy" during a long range session, it helps to take a short break and crack off a couple dozen rounds with my .22 rimfire. Helps restore my concentration.

This is a great thread.

Canuck

JJ,
You have gotten some great advice. To summarize:

(1) Get a good recoil pad and a recoil shield you can wear.

(2) Make sure your rifle weighs enough. You can add a pound to the weight with rings and scope and get you head up off the stock.

(3) You can add weight under the recoil pad by boring a hole and filling it with shot. You can take it out later as you get accustomed to the recoil.

(4) You can reload some rounds to lower velocity. I have reloaded for 250, 270 and 300gr bullets. I though the "snap" with with 270 was greater than the 300gr. You don't have to reduce your velocity by much. Sometimes a 100fps will be enough.

(5) Practice. Try to do less shooting from bench. Shoot from standing unsupported at 50 yds. Try for three quick shots.

You will find that practice makes perfect. Ku-dude

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ku-dude:
Hi Ku-dude,
The weight can also be added to the forend of the stock to keep the rifle in balance or to make the front end a little heavy to reduce jump.
JJ you may want to have an overall weight of ten pounds to help with the recoil for a 375. Just weigh your rifle and figure how much shot you could add to bring it to this figure. Mix two part epoxy with shot and get the rifle to a balance that you like. What does your rifle weigh now? If you post the weight I'll let you know what the recoil velocity and felt recoil figures are.

470 Mbogo

Thanks for all the tips. I do have a wearable recoil pad, but I'd forgotten all about it.

To clarify: all my shots were either offhand or braced kneeling. I'm not even going to think about shooting it off the bench yet.

No scope yet.

Hanging the rifle from my trigger pull scale, I read about 9 lb empty. Winchester advertises it as 8 1/2. My '06 (Rem 700) with scope and military leather sling weighs in at 8 1/2. Either the '06 is too heavy or the .375 is too light, or the trigger pull scale isn't accurate near its upper limit.

For me recoil was an issue for a long time. Then I got into competitive clay targets and could end up shooting my 12 guage over 500 times on any given weekend. Long story short: I learned how to hold the gun--that's the whole story when it comes to managing hard kicking guns. Now 500 shots with a 12 guage means nothing to me in terms soreness or bruising. Concentrate on your form. Concentrate on pulling the buttstock into your shoulder and pressing your cheek down onto the stock. If standing try to stand as perpindicular to the target as possible, lean into the gun, and bend your left knee slightly.
Shooting the shotgun made handling the big bores a lot more tolerable. Sure they kick harder than a 12 guage. But the fundamentals of recoil management apply whether you are shooting a 12 guage shotgun or a 470 NE.
Concentrate...play with a 30-06. Shoot the smaller gun 50 shots offhand. You'll quickly learn how to manage the gun and recoil. The learning curve will be very quick. Then step up to the 375...
When I teach friends to shoot my big bores the almost universal mistake I see them make is standing at almost a 70-90 degree angle to the target (a target rifle shooter's type stance). Square off with the target more like a shotgun shooter.

Recoil management is all about attitude. If you want to shoot a medium or big bore, you can, you just have to want to. Ok, there is a bit more to it then that. You need to set yourself up so that you won't get hurt by the gun. At a minimum using a shoulder pad. You may also want/need a better softer shoulder pad. You may even need a new stock to get the right dimensions. Some stocks are poorly designed, and will accentuate recoil. If you are tall, and or long armed, a too short stock will magnify recoil. I have ape arms, and find factory stocks 1/2-1" too short, not a problem on a small bore, but immediately evident on a big bore.

In addition to shoulder pain, you can also get slapped on the cheek, which I find to be worse then a soar shoulder.

Once you have a gun that physically won't hurt you, then each shooting session is just a re-inforcement of the fact that the gun won't hurt you.

Most importantly, if you start to flinch during a shooting session, end shooting the gun immediately for the day. You will never shoot through a flinch, and attempting to is the most counterproductive thing you can do. I still have problems dealing with handgun recoil due to some extended sessions shooting a 44 mag with heavy loads, despite having flinched.

My first .375 was a CZ. It was pretty heavy, but the recoil was punishing in my opinion. (The biggest thing I was shoting was a 300WM.)

I added some weight to it and it was much nicer. After shooting it, the 300WM was child's play.

Later, I had a 416/404 built and bought a 425 Express. After shooting them some, the 375HH was nothing. I have three 375HH, one CZ, one M70 and one 98. If I had the time, I'd take the weight out, but it doesn't seem to matter so much.

Really consider that scope. It will get your head up and add about a pound to the weight. Win, Win. Ku-dude

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JJohnston:
HI JJohnston,
Just for information sake this is the difference that 1.25 lbs make recoil wise.

For a 375 shooting a 300 grain bullet at 2550 fps using 72 grains of powder.

gun weight 8.75 lbs
recoil vel. 17.2 ft. sec.
recoil energy 40.2 ft. lbs

gun weight 10 lbs
recoil vel 15 ft. sec.
recoil energy 35.1 ft lbs.

The scope as mentioned will add close to this amount or lead shot mixed with epoxy.
The triple Xmagnum pad by Pachmayer model F990 will make all your problems go away.

Take care and keep shooting,
470 Mbogo

I've got the same gun in 416 Rem. Once you put a scope on it,in my case a VariXIII 1.5-5x in Leupold QR weaver style mounts(steel nice and heavy) I think you will find it feels like shooting a different gun. I loaded mine up with a just below full power 400 gr load the other morning and fired 10 rounds in 3 strings of 3,3, and 4 as fast as I could accurately and had no pain no problem. The other thing I think is way underated is too get the trigger done to break nice and crisp. I think that this makes a big difference in perception of recoil and preventing flinch. If you feel the spongey creep being taken up your brain says "HERE IT COMES!!" and you may flinch,if it breaks clean there is no warning.

Keep that right elbow up high.

H. C.

Well these guys have said it all. I still have the factory pad on mine. Granted I'm used to recoil, but I think the pad is adequate. My 2 cents are you are not pulling the rifle hard enough into your shoulder, the tighter you pull it, the less it will "get" you. The other thing is as already stated, if you are beginning to flinch or anticipate the shot, STOP! Do not continue to shoot with a flinch. Once developed, it is very hard to train back out of you. Limit your shooting at first, and when you feel your attention start to wander, end it for the day.

JJohnston

I have never thought about the recoil of a 375 since that was my first rifle The second were a 270 win. I suggest that you get a stock that fits and practise hard to make good fireings.

Let a friend load the gun without you know If it's loaded with a live round or not.

Perpare mentally, and the 375 will be a sissy caliber

Cheers
/JOHAN