Just finished up some bullets for the 50 cal. lever gun, and I will be out running the proof gun in a few days, weather permitting. Below is what they look like:



On the left, a 458 Win Mag for comparision.

First bullet, from left, is the Barnes 450 Grain bullet for the 50-110. Second bullet is a 505 grain welded lead core with copper jacket. Then a 450 grain solid bronze bullet. Cartridge on the right is the .510 Express at a 2.900" COL to fit the rifle I will be building. The Marlin 50 cal. I have been playing with is limited to a 2.680" COL. A 2.900" COL gives more powder capacity, which equates to more velocity at similar pressures. Case holds around 88 to 93 grains of powder, depending on the powder selection, with the 505 grain bullet seated to a 2.900" COL.

Quickload is saying around 2250 ft/sec for the 505 grain bullet, around 43,000 psi, and about 5700 ft/lbs. Can you say "Brown Bear Gun"???

The 505 Weld Core and the 450 Bronze should be a hoot on Moose, Bison, and maybe 'ol M'Bogo.

I have not yet modeled the 450 grain bronze bullet into Quickload,it should have interesting performance levels. This bullet shows promise for the 500 Jeffery, and I can run the length out to bring the weight up to around 550 grains. Nope, not making this bullet for anyone but myself. A note for those having Quickload and wishing to play performance, Quickload is inaccurate for large straight wall cases such as this one. From using the M43, I have developed a correction factor that brings the Quickload calculations to reality.

[ 12-01-2003, 06:40: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

John this project is very interesting to say the least. The Marlin 45-70 is the most fun gun that I own. To have one in a serious big bore is awesome. Have you found anyone that produces a good synthetic stock for the Marlin. I kind of wonder about the stock with lots of recoil. A stainless, synthetic stocked 50 caliber Marlin lever action rifle with punch above and beyond. You might have to add some weight to that puppy.
Take care and looking forward to the results,
Dave

Hi Dave,

Look at this thread for the 50 cal. Marlin. Lots of info and photos. http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=003006

The Marlin is too short internally, I did a lot of modificaton to the M1895 shown in the photos before it would feed the 2.680" COL cartridge. As I mentioned on the 50 Marlin posts, I would not attempt to convert another Marlin, just too much work, and the performance, although at 5000 ft/lbs, suffers at the 2.680" COL. 2.900" really improves things.

Next rifle is on a M71 Browning. I can obtain the 2.900" COL mentioned above with a few modifications. Maybe more.

The M71 is a much larger action than the Marlin, has a larger diameter barrel shank, and, most importantly, the centerline distances of the barrel and the magazine tube on the 71 is greater than on the Marlin. A very important feature!!

I put a stock through bolt through the buttstock to increase the strength.

These big bore lever guns are a real hoot to shoot!!!

[ 12-01-2003, 07:49: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

John -

Heck of a thumper. We have a project brewing that might be on interest as it is similar and might fit some of the challenges you mention with COL. The .510 Phantom is a custom made shortened 500 Jeffery, rated to high pressure (haven't had a chance to push it but 55K should not be an issue). Measure capacity is 70.0 gr water, and the case length is 1.525" ... short but stout. Reamer was cut with the Barnes 570 XLC seated to 2.75". With the bullets for the 50-110 or the 450 you show, COL should be 2.6XX or less (2.3XX with the Barnes IIRC)

If interested, I can send you a sample as well as pictures or check here:
http://www.feistyrooster.com/500phantom/index.html

[ 12-01-2003, 08:04: Message edited by: MartytW ]

Hi Marty:

70 g water capacity is too low. The .510 Express case in the photos has 111 grains water capacity.

Big case and 93 grains of powder keeps us at 43,000 psi or less. 43,000 psi is the generally accepted pressure limit for the new M1895 Marlin receiver (actually a 336) and the new Browning M71 clones. (push this thing at 60,000 psi in a No 1 or a bolt gun and we have a 7000 ft/pound "M'Bogo Basher")

I am entertaining the use of a 500 Jeffery case shortened to give a 2.900" or so COL, but the M71 has a barrel shank diameter of 0.875" so caution must be used when thinking of using a case of larger diameter than the original 50-110. Also considering a 416 Rigby or 338 Lapua case, same disclaimer applies. (The Marlin has a much smaller barrel shank than the M71, we are pushing it with the 50-110 case, a Rigby or Jeffery is way too big in diameter)

We though of using a 500 Nitro Express case, as the outer diameter of the case near the rim is greater than the current case I am using. But, shortening the case to the 2.330" length of the .510 Express case, and determining water capacity, shows it has less volumn, due to thicker sidewalls.

There is a lot of work in this project, both in the rifle conversion and the Quickload calculations and the Oehler M43 work. I have binders full of data, photos, and the rifle construction details. I tried to get Dave Scoville at Rifle/handloader interested but the info and photos I sent him either fell on deaf ears, or was tossed in the trash by one of his "screeners". It would have made one hell of an article, much more so than what is showing up today in both publications.

[ 12-01-2003, 08:46: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

How does one get a cartridge 2.680" long to feed through the Marlin? Mine won't feed anything over 2.550".

John. where did you get the weld core and bronze bullets?

Thanks, Al

Wren, lots of internal modification to the Marlin receiver. Go back and read the referenced post. Plus you have to reshape the magazine tube, work over the loading port and the ejection port, and a lot of other work. In reality, it is not worth the effort, this is why I am switching to M71 rifles.

Al, the 505 bullet is the 535 Woodleigh Weld Core with the exposed lead turned off in a lathe.

And the 450 grain solid bronze? I made it: The source material is "Classified".
For those with an inquiring mind, search for some of the 50 Alaskan data with statements by Harold Johnson about his favorite bullet. Look in Wolfe's "Wildcat Cartridges". Another hint: Think "Backwards".

For the bullet makers with the small CNC lathes (Bridger, Groove) take note: Here is an opportunity to make the perfect lever gun bullets. Get hopping!! Big flat meplat, with a radius to the corners for good feeding. Solid bronze, solid copper, copper with a front inserted lead core, copper with a rear inserted lead core, and , the ultimate, solid bronze with a rear inserted tungsten core. Don't forget the friction reducing groves and a crimp groove. The bullets would also be ideal for the big calliber bolt actions.

Hey John,
bridger already makes that shape...

it's called the JEFFE SPECIAL....

tungston would be niffty, but greatly increase the cost per

jeffe

Well, it is sort of difficult to figure out what Bridger makes with no web site.

Hopefully the FFL thing will be solved so we mortals will not remain mushrooms.

John Ricks

How did those 450 gr cast bullets work out?

CNC Lathe and bullets??? how many do you want and what alloy? Have an Lathe sitting here idle about 2 days a week.

Keep up the work with these fun calibers.

James Wisner

Very nice John. Looks great.
DMC

John Ricks, how long are those cut-off 50 BMG surplus bullets after you cut them down to 450 grains? Can you cut them off a little longer to get a higher bullet weight?

Scott

Jim, shoot me an email with pricing.

Scott, nope, not surplus BMG bullets but CNC turned solid bronze 750 grain BMG bullets. Can go to 550 or so grains before the ogive starts to slide down hill too much. Gets sort of expensive to make bullets this way, but I have a box full left over from my 50 BMG days.

Johnson used pulled BMG bullets, the 647 grain jacketed bullets from WWII ammo. His were around 375 grains, due to the shorter COL of the 50 Alaskan.

Could not recall the cut down BMG bullet weight, been a long time since I read the article. Problem with the 50 Alaskan is you runout of COL, and powder capacity, real fast. Advantage of the cut down lead core 647 grain bullet is you have more weight for length as combared with the bronze.

I have a box full of 647 grain lead cores, I will cut one down today, to the same length as the bronze, and see what the weight comes out to.

Interesting, we are playing around today with a cartridge and bullet concept spawned over 50 years ago way up in Coopers Landing, Alaska. "Ol Harold was way ahead of his time, who would have thought our "high tech" truncated cone solids in reality originated from an old BMG barrel someone gave Harold, an old lever gun and a box of discarded 50 BMG cartridges!!! All this in a gun shop with the simplest of tools that hardly had electricity. A well kept secret for many years.

John,as I remember didn't Harold, cut off the spitzer point and then load them butt foreward

Who makes dies?

[ 12-05-2003, 09:03: Message edited by: Tongo ]