Gentlemen
I have with great interest followed the latest discussions regarding DGR calibers performance ("killability").
There was a topic about the "weak" 404Jeffrey....!!!
I know that many of todays DGR calibers are developed on the european safari experiences.
What about classic american calibers???
Are there any of the "old west" calibers that could compete on performance with the european DGR calibers, such as the 404 , 416R, 470NE or the 505 Gibbs...etc..??

// voyager

Since most American big-bore cartridges were designed during the black powder era, none can really compete with the African cartridges . . . with the ORIGINAL balistics.

However, there are several that can compete if chambered in a modern action and loaded to modern pressure levels.

There is published data for the 50-140 Sharps that throws 500+gr bullets at 2100+fps at VERY low pressure (about 30K I think).

The 50-110 Winchester (another link on this page) can achieve about the same balistics with modern loadings.

There are also the 450 and 50 Alaskan rounds. these are not "old west" cartridges, but they are very American and have respectable balistics.

Even the 45-90 can be made quite powerful in the right gun, with the right loads. This cartridge has nearly the same case capacity of the .458Win. At the same pressures, in a Ruger #1, it could come close to the same power.

However, nearly all of these guns would be customs.

FWIW

The following are fine American safari calibers:

404 Dakota
416 Remington
458 Lott
450 Watts
450 Ackley
450 Dakota
460 Wby (but not in a Mark V please)
470 Mbogo
470 Capstick
500 A-Square
550 Magnum
550 Express
585 Nyati
577 Tyrannosaur
600 Overkill

50 BMG

And there's the one conspicuously absent from the list 500 grs. posted that has killed more DG than all of the other listed calibers put together:

.458 Winchester Magnum

quote:

Originally posted by voyager:
Gentlemen
I have with great interest followed the latest discussions regarding DGR calibers performance ("killability").
There was a topic about the "weak" 404Jeffrey....!!!
I know that many of todays DGR calibers are developed on the european safari experiences.
What about classic american calibers???
Are there any of the "old west" calibers that could compete on performance with the european DGR calibers, such as the 404 , 416R, 470NE or the 505 Gibbs...etc..??

// voyager

First, define 'DGR'.

Second, define 'compete'.

George

Hi George.
1) DGR= Rifle to be used for Elephant, Buffalo etc
2) Compete= Performance in general, safe "kill" on the mentioned animals.
// voyager

quote:

Originally posted by voyager:
Hi George.
1) DGR= Rifle to be used for Elephant, Buffalo etc
2) Compete= Performance in general, safe "kill" on the mentioned animals.
// voyager

voyager,
On this site, a 'DGR' is a rifle used to regularly hunt dangerous game, and is capable of stopping charges when necessary.

As such, I don't think any 'old west' round is really optimal for use in a DGR for two reasons: they tend to use lead bullets running at relatively slow velocities, and tend to be chambered in single-shots and lever-actions.

You can always chamber a SXS double-rifle in say, .50 Sharps or .50-110, run it 'warm' with superior bullets, and have something approaching a practical 'DGR'.

While many of the "old west" rounds might work on DG under favorable conditions, their ponderous ballistics count against them, IMO.

While they have been used on DG in the past, they are much better suited to non-dangerous game.

Planning a safari, are you? There's no DG where you are.

George

510 Wells Express & 500 A2

Brad

Folks,

He is asking about "old west" cartridges, not modern cartridges.

George

quote:

Originally posted by voyager:

Are there any of the "old west" calibers that could compete on performance with the european DGR calibers, such as the 404 , 416R, 470NE or the 505 Gibbs...etc..??

George, since the answer to the question posed is "No", several of us are attempting to list suitable American calibers, even though they were not used in the old west.

George

quote:

What about classic american calibers???

The one that comes to my mind is the .400 Niedner circa 1939, I’m not up on modern foot-pounds of energy required for a DGR but the standard load was a 300 grain bullet at 2700fps.

.400-Niedner

I know it's a wildcat but I would add the .416 Taylor to 500grains list.

I fail to understand whats weak about a 404 Jeferys...A 400 gr. bullet at up to 2600 FPS is hardly weak...Some folks talk when they should be listening...