skl1
No that was not me that had the rechambered Kodiak. If I remember it was one of Rusty's friends. I do remember that the rifle still shot well after the re-chambering job.
I like the fit and finish of the Chapuis rifles. While I do prefer a splinter forend the Chapuis feels OK. I like the wood finish better. Also I like the fact that the most Chapuis doubles have the rib pre cut for a scope mount. I like the sights better. The Heym might be my second favorite of the new made doubles, I would like to shoot one. I have shot a Chapuis 470.
Try to handle [and if possible shoot] as many doubles as you can. Then get the one that fits you the best. Or If they all feel good get the one you like the best.

450NE#2 and Mac,

Thanks for the posts. Mac, what does the .458 RCBS do ballistically (it was one of Fred Huntington's wildcats, wasn't it)? How is it for pressure, and are you thinking of re-chambering again in .450NE #2 for more speed and energy? Any worries about the new pressure levels on the Pedersoli? How about hunting with a hammergun? What are the loaded safe carrying conditions?

Steve

NE450No2 and Mac,

Thanks

Daggaron, I do not think the crossbolt was damaged on that stuck merkel. It looked tobe in perfect condition with no use or impact marks at all. I would speculate that either the cross bolt fit its slot too tightly or whoever assembled the rifle did not remove all of the burrs.

What concerns me is that a dab of mud may get into that crossbolt hole, and then what? I don't know.

The Merkel is a few thousand dollars less than the Chapuis, however.

If mud got in the crossbolt hole, it would probably just polish away any nasty burrs. Jeweler's rouge might be better.

The Greener crossbolt sure did work well on Rooster Cogburn's favorite shotgun, and many, many other double rifles and shotguns over the last century.

500 grains,

If the Merkel was a few thousand cheaper, I think it would make the decision easy, but I'm finding the Chapuis (this is about to go up) at $8,900 w/ ejectors and recoil pad vs 9,000 for engraved and 9,500 for unengraved (???) Merkel. I'm using Champlin arms as best price for Chapuis and Eurogun and Cabelas for Merkel. This is for 470 or 500NE. Is there a place where I can find the Merkel for less?

Thanks, Steve

Thanks for the advice.

I'm a little hesitant to buy used, for fear it's a gun that wouldn't regulate. But I suppose the same is true for NE calilbers as is true for .44 Magnum handguns: lots of good values from folks who don't like the recoil. Also, as you say, folks checked the African Safari box and don't need it.

Only hurry for me is the price increases on European guns being driven by the weak dollar.

Steve

All Merkels are purposely fitted very tightly when new! A little working of the action, and shooting that should, certainly, be done before useing a rifle for hunting dangerous game, will take care of the "BREAK IN"!

Merkel rifles are regulated exactly the same way a H&H, is regulated! Lazers may be used for the innitial setting of the barrels sets before the regulation begins, which would make sence!

My Merkel opens very nicely only after about 40 rounds of shooting, and a little working the action while watching TV. The rifle at the show, was probably, as 500 says, a burr, or a metel shaveing left in the action. This isn't a big deal, that can happen with the best names going! Certainly not a reason to avoid the name! As far as mud getting into the hole,for the cross bolt, the only way it could would be to drop in the mudd with the rifle open, and that isn't likely. If one did drop an open rifle in mud, the mud would block the action closeing whether it had a greener cross bolt or not. It would be behind the extractors, on the face, and on the watertable, and a finely fitted double will not close and lock on a piece of typeing paper! I have several rifles with the Greener cross bolt actions, and some are 90+ yrs old, and have never given me a minutes trouble. It isn't a worry, IMO!

The Chapuis rifles are fine rifles, and shoot very well as a rule, but I simply do not like a beavertail fore end, even on a shotgun. They do come, from the factory, with removable blocks for mounting a scope, this is a plus, IMO!
The articulated trigger is something I can live without, but if you like it is there. Ejectors are one thing I do not like on a big bore double rifle, and everyone here has heard the reasons repeatedly. Now if they are available on a double I will buy with them, then disconnect them, before hunting with the rifle. REASON to buy it with ejectors? The rifle will sell better later if it is fitted with ejectors, no other reason.

The Krieghoff is an accident waiting to happen, as Ray would say! I just talked, at length, with a guy at the Dallas show, who was sitting in his father's booth, working a Hyem 500 NE double, opening, and closeing it to work out the stiffness. His father sells Krieghoff, Merkel,Heym and Chapuis, so he can shoot what he wants. While he was talking he related a bad happening he had with a Krieghoff double while takeing on a big buffalo. He said,and I quote:,

"I cocked the rifle, stalked into close quarters with a very large Buffalo. When I got a good line on his vitals, I fired the right barrel on the 500/416K, hitting the buff square, but didn't put him down. My thumb was on the de-cock slide, when I fired the rifle, and the recoil caused my thumb to slide the de-cock button ,unbeknowenced to me, decocking the left barrel, so when I tried to fire the left barrel, "NOTHING", not even a click, it just did not fire. Luckily, the bull turned, and went into the grass, rather than stompinhg me into the red dirt! When I got home, that rifle went away, and I picked up this Heym 500NE!" I think that made a believer out of me!

Among the new "over the counter doubles" My pick would be the Heym, if cost wasn't a consideration, but even if it weren't, my second choice would be the cheapest of the ones mentioned, the Merkel! Even though it is cheaper than the Chapuis, it is set up the way it would be if I set it up myself. The but plate is a solid plastic one for a reason. It is only there to protect the wood, till you can install a recoil pad, and adjust the pull to your body size. This is necessary, because a double rifle must fit you perfectly, and the "one size fitts all" stocks of over the counter rifles are simply not suited to everyone, especially on a double rifle. In my case, the pull was perfect,for me on the Merkel, so I maintained the same length with the Pachmieyr Decelarator pad installed.

If I were you what I would do is try them all, and chose the one that fits you best! Armed with the knowledge of the draw backs of them all, you can make your decision to suit yourself!

I own a Merkel 470 that I have used on two safaris and it has been fine. They are stiff in the beginning but a few rounds and some handling will take care of that. I also added a Kickeez pad to lengthen the stock and absorb some recoil.

I imagine I will put mine up for sale after this years hunt as I think this may be my last elephant hunt and that was what the gun was bought for. I imagine a lot of used ones go on the market for such reasons. Recoil may be one also but I find mine to be quite manageble as far as recoil is concerned. I just do not see having 7K worth of gun that I will not use for hunting sitting in a safe.

BigB

Byron,



What about varmint shooting? It's a proven fact that the .470NE will more quickly and effectively stop a prairie-dog charge than either the .223 or .22-250...sorry, I stole that from handloader magazine.



Why'd you choose the Merkel? I think I'm pretty much sold on it. Any recommended vendors? I found one place selling them at $7,695, which is the best price I've seen.



Steve

skl1 (Steve),



I agree with the comments above about the Merkel becoming smoother after just a little use. They are very tight when new. I've only fired about 30 rounds through mine so far but it is very smooth opening and closing now. The Merkel manual states this will be the case and describes how they are made to fit very tight when new. Nothing like reading the user's manual!



Why did I chose the Merkel? First off, I'm not a wealthy man; my choices were limited. Even at the "beginner level" the double rifle club is an expensive one to get into! I actually found my Merkel on sale (!) for US$7,195 about a year and half ago. It's a Model 140-2 in .470 NE that normally retailed for $8,995 at this particular store. They had three in stock and needed to move a couple. (Slow economy, etc. at the time.) I have seen one just recently at the same store that did sell for $8,995.



I had done some reading on doubles so I knew a little bit but I freely admit I'm far from an expert on them. I like the Anson and Deeley boxlock action, Greener cross bolt, and the traditional safety (compared to the Krieghoff) on the Merkel. I also liked the fact that it's a non-ejector. That seems more traditional to me. Plus, I like the sights as RIP mentioned above.



I will probably never be able to afford a fine English double whether new or used. The Merkel, at least for me, comes close. It may not be a Rigby or an H&H but I like it. I've been very pleased with mine. I just need to find more time to go shoot it!



Again, I'm just a beginner when it comes to double rifles. There are some VERY experienced and knowledgable double rifle users on these forums. They are worth listening to. RIP and Mac's statements above are spot on in my humble opinion.



Just my two cents worth....

-Bob F.







Yeah, it's a bitch from the bench!

[quoteI just talked, at length, with a guy at the Dallas show, who was sitting in his father's booth, working a Hyem 500 NE double, opening, and closeing it to work out the stiffness. His father sells Krieghoff, Merkel,Heym and Chapuis, so he can shoot what he wants. While he was talking he related a bad happening he had with a Krieghoff double while takeing on a big buffalo. He said,and I quote:,

"I cocked the rifle, stalked into close quarters with a very large Buffalo. When I got a good line on his vitals, I fired the right barrel on the 500/416K, hitting the buff square, but didn't put him down. My thumb was on the de-cock slide, when I fired the rifle, and the recoil caused my thumb to slide the de-cock button ,unbeknowenced to me, decocking the left barrel, so when I tried to fire the left barrel, "NOTHING", not even a click, it just did not fire.

---

Mac,

Can you explain this a little. Not arguing just trying to work out what he meant.

1. He had his finger on the large protruding safety/coking device.

2. When the rifle recoiled, presumably backwards, his finger however instead of moving forwards in relation to the rifle as is normal, instead worked backwards in the opposite direction and uncocked the rifle.

3. Presumably a Krieghoff un-cocks by sliding the button backwards and forwards to cock, as is the usual practice.
????

I have always read how these cocking devices are stiffer than normal safeties, but these comments show them to be very "un-stiff".

Also if this can happen with a Krieghoff, if this fellow has his finger on a safety on say a Heym, why won't exactly the same thing happen ???

Very confused

Maybe the Heym has a better markup value and margin

Bob,

Thanks for the info. I like the Merkel, too, and I think I'll end up going that way.

NitroX, I handled the Krieghoff at Cabelas. You first push forward, then let it slide back (under some spring tension if I remember), to decock. You then slide forward (against some spring pressure) to recock.

Steve

Steve,

The only double rifles I could find locally to look at were the Merkel and The Kreighoff. Of these two I thought the Merkel felt a lot better. I also asked the PH I was hunting with what low cost double would he buy and he said the Merkel. The local area gun shop I deal with was able to get them so that is where I bought mine. He gave us a good price as a buddy of mine bought one at the same time. I think the price you have of $7,695 is good. I think I paid $7,150 3 years ago, but we bought two. My test target has two shots touching at 50 meters, and the gun does shoot. Plus it is amazing to me that whoever has a go with it seems to put 2 shots very close together. This has happened with about 5 different shooters.

Good luck I am sure you will like the Merkel.

BigB

sk1,

I have not priced new doubles for a couple of years, but at that time, a Merkel could be had for as low as $6800, but the chapuis that I found were breaking $10K.

I don't know any more than what I wrote, and that seemed a little strange to me, as well, He was there sitting in front of his father, who is a dealer, of Krieghoff, so I had no reason to disbelieve him.

As far as the standard safety being pushed, or pulled, which ever he did, it would be far easier to rimody the sittuation, than with a re-cocking device, I would think! Imo, there is some value in a de-cocking device, but I'll let some one else try it in the field.

The Heym is higher to start with, and may have a better re-sale value than the others, but still, as Micky says, will not apprecieate in value today, but all of them may for your grandkids! I'm sure the Britt rifles lost value, as used guns, when new! It is only now that they are old that they gain!

I have bought, and sold a lot of doubles over the last 40 years. Most were only sold to buy another one, that I liked better at the time. I'm still poor, and still double rifle poor, and I haven't made a dime, on doubles, that wasn't turned back into another double, so the resale value is not as important to me as useing the rifle for it's intended purpose, HUNTING. I have a Merkel, and some Westley Richards doubles, along with several other German,Austrian, and Italian doubles, and I like them all! I collect Westley Richards, but I find good in all the doubles I've owned, no matter where they were made! If they put two holes within a inch, or two, of each other at 50 yds, when I do my part, they are as good as the most expensive Purdey ever built, in my view. Buy what you like, and go hunting the "BITE BACKS", then sell it, if the money is a worry! The loss you take, on it, will not be much, and I would consider it just part of the cost of hunting in an exotic surrounding,for exotic animals, with an exotic rifle!

Of the two you mentioned I like the Chapuis best. I prefer
a splinter forend, but the Chapuis feels OK and has the added advantage that if you shoot multiple shots in warm weather the Chapuis has almost enough wood to keep you from burning your fingers. I have 2 British Big Bore doubles and a Chapuis 9,3x74R. The Chapuis has been an excellent rifle and is my favorite rifle under 40 cal. The ribs on MOST Chapuis 470's are already prepped for scope mounts. This might be important as you get older. I helped a friend shoot and develop loads, including loads for 350gr bullets in a Chapuis 470. The rifle shot very well.
Try to handle both rifles and buy the one that fits you the best.

Mac

Thanks

But can you confirm what skl1 said. Does the Krieghoff really cock AND uncock by pushing the slide forward ?

Or does it operate more conventionally by moving the slide back for safe and forward for fire or cocked ?

I haven't handled one of these new Krieghoffs, only an older model with a conventional safety.

NitroX
On the Blaser R-93, the Blaser doubles and Drillings, and on the Krieghoff Doubles and drillings you push foward to cock them. To uncock you push foward [ and on the R-93 slightly down] and the gun will uncock.
You should not be touching the cocking lever when holding the gun in a normal firing position. If you cocked the Krieghoff on the way up and quickly fired it before you had the normal "proper grip" it might be possiple for the recoil to cause your thumb to hit the cocking lever in recoil, thus uncocking it.

450NE #2,

Why'd you like the Chapuis better? Gun fit? Level of finish? Action? Look of the gun?

Steve

P.S. Did you rechamber and hunt with a Kodiak Mk IV (Pedersoli) hammergun? If so how do it go? How do you "safe" the gun and be ready? Loaded w/ hammers uncocked, or cocked and loaded with action open?

DOUBLE POST sorry!