Good morning gents,
I have taken the plunge and sent Butch a deposit for a PH model in .450/.400....all comments, queries, and suggestions welcome.

Oh, and this will be my first double rifle. I've handled a few and fired one and have wanted one since I first learned that there was a such thing as a double rifle.......when i was a young kid. So, needless to say, I am beside myself with glee.

Congratulations on the upcoming rifle. I'm sure that you will really enjoy it.

1 question.......why did you go with one so small where as for the same money you could have gotten a 470 or 500 nitro.

just asking a question not ment to piss ya off.

Good choice all the way around IMO...

I really like Searcy doubles, and you picked an excellent caliber...

I have shot a lot of DG with that caliber, and it performed par excellent in every case......

quote:

Originally posted by 700 nitro:
1 question.......why did you go with one so small where as for the same money you could have gotten a 470 or 500 nitro.

just asking a question not ment to piss ya off.

Perhaps he's comfortable with the size of his genetalia and has noting to "prove" with a larger rifle.

i was just curiouse i didnt need comments from the peanut gallery.

i just figured might as well get the most bang for your buck.


if the 450 400 is what he wants more power to him its a great caliber but if hes going to hunt a lot of dg mainly buffalo and elephant then a 470 or 500 would have been a much better choice.

Oh, c'mon 700... it was just a joke (that's what the rolling heads indicate).

You lobbed it in, I just swung at it.

Surely we're allowed to joke around here now and then... aren't we?

The 470 is the most classic of the classics, but the 450/400 is perhaps the most "shootable" of the classics. They are both up to the job. Something like a 577 or 600 or 700 might be fun but is really unnecessary.

Personally, I cannot imagine carrying around a 18-20 pound rifle all day long.

Thanks for the comments and well wishes guys. 700, I decided on the 450/400 for a few reasons; I wanted a lighter, slimmer, trimmer double, nostalgia (I love reading Jim Corbett's work and that was his double of choice) and from the info I gathered on this forum and others....Ray's comments sold me on it more than any. I took no offense at your question whatsoever. I almost went for the .470.

sorry new guy didnt mean to snap at ya.

It was a good joke.

degoins:

I heard Butch is introducing a slimmer action for the lower caliber DRs. Is yours going to be one of them?

Are you flying out there to get measured?

Going with any upgrades? (I.e., wood?)

Going to DSC?

Butch hopes to have our .577 finished and with him at both SCI and DSC.

Top choice "degoins", I have often thought of selling my 470NE and replacing it with a 450/400 with a detachable scope, although i like the 470, it is a specialized gun and on trips to africa a do prefer to carry only one rifle, a scoped 450/400 would be great{ scope on for small game and cats, scope off for Buff and Ele}. most of my hunting here in Australia and Zimbabwe, two quick shots at moderate to short ranges are the norm. Good choice.

I've never owned or used one, but one person who used one extensively gave it the highest of praises as an all-around double rifle cartridge fully up to any task. As one of the most famous African hunters who ever lived his testimony ref the .450/.400 carries tremendous weight...

"With the possible exception of the .450 only, this is certainly the most popular caliber that has ever been placed on the African or Asian market. For many years, prior to the introduction of Holland's .375 Magnum, it was THE all-around caliber. Doubles and singles were seen all over the place until Jeffery brought out his .404 Mauser in place of the single-loader. It's one of the grandest weapons imaginable for all big game hunting. It became a standard caliber thoughout the British gun trade, just as the .450 did. I can hardly think of a single British gunsmith's name that I haven't seen at some time or another engraved on a rifle handling this shell. It has ever been one of my favorites. I have used it extenseively on all kinds of African game from elephant down with the greatest possible satisfaction. In it's new 9.5 pound guise it's one of the best weapons you could possibly choose."

____________________________________________

"I have never heard similar complaints concerning the bullets thrown by the .400 that I mentioned when talking about the .404, and certainly had no complaints of their behavior myself when using these rifles. For some reason that I find difficult to explain I derived greater pleasure from using the .400 than any other caliber; and no weapon behaved more successfully in my hands. There is something about the double .400 that just seems to suit me. I would happily finish the remainder of my career with a pair of them and nothing else - unless it was a third, just to give me a set of three!

"A lot of what should have been most interesting discussions have taken place with the .400-bore in the center of the picture, but they failed to hold one's interest because those who have attmped to run it down and claimed that it lacked power had either never used it or else had only done so to a very limited extent. They said that in their experience it lacked power, but they were unable to give details, or at any rate failed to do so. Naturally, it would seem to lack power if you used the split bullet on animals like lion or tiger, but that is a very poor base from which to build an argument against the rifle. Those men were staunch upholders of nothing smaller tha .450. But to speak like that is merely to expose one's ignorance and lack of experience. It's merely absurd to state categorically that an animal like a lion or tiger cannot be stopped with certainty with less than 5,000 ft-lbs of energy. Experience has shown that 4,000 ft-lbs can safely be taken against any animal anywhere. Those who answered the argument contented themselves with saying that they had used the .400 with the greatest possible satisfaction for so many years and utterly failed to see what reason the other fellas had for saying that it lacked power. They had never noticed any lack of power; and that was that. But the whole discussion could have been made much more interesting and instructive if actual instances had been given. I've never yet succeeded in pinning down one of the .400's detractors to actual details of where and when the .400 let him down. I repeat, these detractors are all men with Indian experience - some with not much; I have never heard a word against the .400 from men with African experience.

"And right here I'm strongly recommending the double .400 for African big game hunting. In the light of my own experience, I'm perfectly convinced that you will not find a more generally satisfactory weapon."

John Taylor, "African Rifles and Cartridges" pages 112-116

_______________________________________

What more can be said than that? You can rest assured that you've made a fine choice indeed...

New Guy- GET OFF YHE GENETIALA COMMENTS. NOW! DO YOU HEAR ME! Pay attention concentrate , Pay attention , focus. IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ABOUT YOUR SOCIAL STATUS AND INSECURITIES NOT HIS! WHO GIVES A SHIT WHAT HE ORDERS FROM BUTCH. Do you own a double rifle? Do you have a clue? I HATE READING THIS CRAP!-ROB

ok rob no more expresso for you........ or have you had to much irish coffie.

What weight does Buch make the .450/.400PH ?

Degoins:

Did you give any consideration to the 500/416? I believe it has lots of punch with much flatter trajectories than typical double cartridges. I have a Searcy 470 but if I were having another built it would be a scoped 500/416. The 500/416 Krieghoff I shot seemed to be much lighter in recoil than my 470. Good luck with new new addition. I'm sure you will be delighted with Butch and his guns!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
New Guy- Do you own a double rifle? Do you have a clue?

Yes, Rob... I own 3 DRs. Correction, actually that's only two currently (I just sold one - double) And making a decision on replacing the third...

What's your point about whether or not I own a DR?

Is that enough DRs for me to "have a clue" - or do I need to own more than that to "have a clue?"

What do you think the average is here for ownership?

Do you think that maybe my measley three is bringing the average down for the forum?

Sorry about my joke, I honestly had no idea about your "problem"... based on your reaction however, I assume my "joke" hit a little too close to home for you?

Serously, lighten up with the ALL CAPS... you're starting to take yourself too seriously.

quote:

IT HAS IMPLICATIONS ABOUT YOUR SOCIAL STATUS

I'd always had a rather high opinion of my own social status, what with my 4 doubles, late model pickup (1997), fine huntin'dog and a wife who can out shoot me, but then I laughed out loud at New Guy's joke. Maybe I should reasess things...

RGB..relax, you've got way too much class and experience to let tis bother you

A friend of mine in Victoria TX ordered a Searcy 450/400 from Butch. The caliber of the barrels was .411.

He took it to Africa this past summer and he was very impressed with the rifle. He said it had plenty of penetration for elephant.

As was stated above the 450/400 3 inch is probably the best all around chambering for a double rifle, if there is such a thing.

What you get with a 450/400 is a long .408 or .411, 400 grain bullet that penetrates well.
The recoil is very manageable in either the 55 cord, tropical 1950 FPS, or the 60 cord 2150 version. A good 450/400 ought to weigh right at 10 pounds.

I own a 450/400 3 inch. I hunt with it every chance I get! I personally know several folks who own/hunt with a double rifle chambered in 450/400 and not a one of those folks is dissatisfied with their rifle or the performance of the round.

Small enought to carry all day, and big enough to sort things out should a big nasty pop up out of the bush.

As far as Butch's rifles go, I think he makes the best Amreican Made Double Rifle. He is a fair and honest business man! If there is a problem you get to talk to Butch, not a sales rep!

Just my opines!

Brothers, please accept my humble appology for not replying o those of you who had questions. 577, i cant go to Cali. for Butch to measure me, I wish I could, but I just had my son help me do the measurements according to the order form. Also, I wast aware that Butch would be making smaller actions......good news indeed. 458, I can think of no better endorsement for the .450/.400 that the one you so graciously posted by Pondoro. LJS, I dont know how much the rifle will weigh yet, but i hope it's under 10 lbs. As much as I love the bigger bores, I much prefer a slimmer rifle for handling. As those of you who are familiar with the .450/.400 have said, I think it's the perfect combo of handling and power. Thanks so much for you replies.

Friends, if I'm slow to reply, it's not because I'm ignoring you, it's this ~!@# computer. I'm at home and this thing likes to show it's butt. I spent half the day yesterday running the maintenace programs on it and it got worse instead of better. But I appreciate all of your input. The extras I ordered for the rifle are the flip up night sight and the trap door grip cap (just because I think they're cool). Hey did any of you see Under Wild Skies Africa this am? It was a new one in which Tony Makris took a nice buff with a H & H 8 bore.....and as he always does, he included his misses, which I respect. After that went off a new show called Getting Wild with Cathy Garrison came on and she killed a water buff in the Northern Territories with a double.....looked like a Heym. So it's been a double weekend for me....great stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by 700 nitro:
1 question.......why did you go with one so small where as for the same money you could have gotten a 470 or 500 nitro.

just asking a question not ment to piss ya off.

700nitro, I don't think he could have picked a better chambering, espacially for a FIRST douible rifle. I have owned almost every chambering you can find chambered in a double rifle, but I can't think of a chambering I like as well as the 450/400NE 3" Jeffery cartridge. My largest double was a 577NE, and I have absolutely no desire to ever own another one, I have not owned a 600NE or 700NE double and again, have no desire to ever own one of those either. I would rather have a nice trim S/S 9.3X74R double that either of the big "LOOK AT ME" toys above the 500NE.IMO, the 500NE is tha largest usefull caliber in a sporting rifle! I have a brand new 470NE that shoots like a target rifle, but if I could only have one double rifle to hunt everything with it would be a B. Searcy PH 450/400NE 3" with 26" barrels, in the 9 lb weight range, with selective ejectors, and a manual safety, and with QD scope mounts and rings installed at Searcy, and 3/32" bead, and a large gloming flip-up sight.

Degoins congratulations on you new (first) double rifle, and, my friend, you couldn't have picked a more usefull cartridge to build it around!

Thanks MACD37, I was hoping you'd jump in on this as you have extensive experience with doubles.

degoins:

Great choice, and have fun, you will have a rifle that works for North America and Africa. Another endorsement for the .400 Jefferey double came from Elmer Keith, who thought that one would be the ideal Alaskan bear gun, as well as a great timber gun for elk, moose, and the like.

The only double that I have owned was a .400 Jefferey a.k.a. 450-400 3-inch. It was a nice rifle, but a little heavy. It now resides in the home of another AR poster.

The rifle described by Mac is also my ideal, and my wife has agreed that I can order one from Butch next year, barring major financial disaster.

Degoins,
Did you know that Butch will be at the Dallas Safari Club show at the end of January? Perhaps you could get to Dallas and get measured by Butch while you were there?

mac i was just curious i know the 450/400 is a great gun i was just woundering why he went with it and i under stand the bigger doubles 577.....600......700 are not for every one.

i didnt buy the 700 as a look at me rifle i bought it cause i like big rifles and i have the phyical streagth to haul it around.and tha fact i wanted to see for my self what it can do.

i didnt mean any disrespect.

Rusty, yes I've heard on this forum that Butch will be at the DSC. I would love to be able to go, but I dont think it's in the cards. 700, as stated before, I took no offense whatsoever at your query. I love the big uns myself ( i have a Ruger #1 in .458 Lott), but I think I will enjoy carrying and shooting the lighter rifle more.

Oh, and if any of you gents would like to come down here to the tropical South and help me cull some does and maybe a buck or 2 just let me know. All it will cost you is an out of state hunting license (if you're out of state) and whatever your transportation costs you. You can stay here at the house, just be warned though....we dont drink or smoke. The gun season lasts til Jan 2. I can only take one guest at a time. And bring those doubles.

Degoins,
Your invitation is most gracious! Thank you!

Rusty,
you're quite welcome.

There was a question about the 500/416. I discussed this with Butch when I was considering caliber. Butch liked it but for two reasons: first, for resale the 470 is King; secondly, the 500/416 is loaded to different velocity is the four major ammo makers. This means it will regulate with only one manufacturer. I chose the 470 but 450/400 and 500/416 are both very good. I have a spare 470 coming later this month if someone wants one, it is for sale.

Hello,
I think you made a great choice. I have a Searcy 450-400. I had mine made intentionaly heavy. I don't mind carring a heavy rifle. With the weight and the light( relative) recoil of the cartridge it is a delight to shoot. Time between shots is very short and that can be quite helpful under certain circumstances. With the scope on it works great for plains game.
Just my 2 cents worth.

els,
thanks for your input.

Not trying to be smart but, is NE ammo readily available in Africa/abroad? A lot of people recommend against using wildcats. I would think uncommon ammo would have simular limitations. Is NE ammo is more common overseas than here?

Sorry for the hijack.....

This is becoming quite an interesting topic. I, too have wondered about a couple things concerning a proper choice for a double. First I must say I've never shot a hard-kicking double. The only double I have is the 10.75X65R. A "pussycat" to say the least. I have owned/shot the .416 caliber, the .458 Winchester Magnum, and a couple .375 H&Hs but now just one, all being bolt actions. The .375 H&H Mag is a pleasure to shoot. The .416 caliber was a little on the unpleasant side to shoot. Now with the extra weight of the second barrel in the .416 caliber and another pound and a half might shift from uncomfortable to tolerable. If I'm reading the ballistic tables correctly the .416 Rigby versus the .458 Winchester Magnum or .470 Nitro there just ain't "that" much difference. Questions: (1) Why aren't more opting for the .416 Rigby double? (2) Am I missing something in wanting to go that way for my "stopper" gun? The last part of the equation in my case is I don't plan to hunt elephant unless I win the lottery. Good shooting! Mike

degoins
You have made an EXCELLENT choice in the 450/400.
I have a 450/400 3 1/4" double that weighs @10 lbs. The 450/400 is a great calibre.
If I was having a new double built I would have QD scope mounts fitted.
For the modern sport hunter the 450/400 is the best choice for all round double use IMHO.
You will never be sorry you got a 450/400.
For use against deer sized animals try the 300 gr Hawk bullets with the .025jkt.
Start out with the same powder charge as you use for the 400 grainers.

NE 450 no 2,
Thanks for your input. I especially appreciate the info about the 300 gr. bullets as I happen to have some for my Ruger #1 .405. The 300 grainers are a lot more common than the 400....and cheaper too. Do you know of a source for some 400 gr cast gas checked bullets? Thanks again.