What game, under what conditions can an experienced hunter NOT safely hunt with a 416 Rem Mag?

With the new Hodgdon Extreme powders, heat is no longer a problem and I am really left wondering what advantage there is to ANY other big bore in the field.

I don't disagree with your premise. In able hands, it is quite a fine cartridge. The only way I can justify the selection of a larger caliber, with heavier bullets, is that more damage will result, diminishing the likelihood of a charge and increasing the odds of stopping it, should it occur. Apples to Apples, the "rate of dispatchment" accelerates, with each step up in caliber.

[ 09-25-2003, 05:53: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

If you tread upon that slippery slope, you wind up at .375 H&H.

If the .416 Remington is any better than the .375 H&H for the hunter, then would not the .458 Lott be better for some up close DG situations?

As a compromise for any situation, near or far, thick or thin skinned, it would be hard to beat the .416 Remington. Nevertheless, it is a compromise, requiring perfect shot placement in many situations, as would a .375 H&H. However, those situations don't always cooperate with the hunter, but turn compromising themselves.

But would it not be comforting to be backed up in a hairy situation, by a bigger bore in able hands? I wonder why that is so?

Gents,

The rules I follow:

#1. Shot placement

#2. Bullet performance

#3. Bullet energy

Without rule #1, the other two rules are useless. Bad shot placement with a bigger bore will not correct poor judgment/marksmanship IMHO.

Which leads us to the answer: Shoot the biggest caliber which you are the most comfortable and accurate with in shot placement, which leads us back to rule #1 IMO.

[ 09-25-2003, 09:10: Message edited by: CK ]

I really want to stir the pot on this one, because I feel strongly that there is a point where enough power is simply enough for all practical purposes and statistical probabilities. For example, I don't think an insurance agency would give you a break for anything bigger than a 416 Rem. The other factors above are driving the equation, primarily shot placement and bullet performance. If you hold these constant, and run up the energy scale, there is nothing gained after the 416 Rem.

The 416 Rem is to Africa as the 338 Win Mag is to the US...enough power in close for dangerous game and flat enough for long shots on grass eaters. Yup, the 375 H&H falls right in the middle.

The slippery slope exists, but it is slanted DOWN in the direction of MORE power.

All of these threads that contain the word "best" open the door for endless debate (which I agree can sometimes be good). The .416 Remington is a hell of a round, as is the Rigby, the Lott, the .375 H&H, .470 Nitro, etc. Personally, I use a .450 Ackley but that has as much to do with the gun as it does with the round's performance.....basically, I built one on an all stainless Model 70 using a Shilen barrel cut to 23". The gun just works for me. Really though, they're so many variables to consider that it's awful hard to peg any one round as "the best" (factors such as bullet design, bullet placement, accuracy, terminal performance, etc).

Lee Martin
www.singleactions.com

Well

I have read loads of articles on this and asked a lot of people livning in Africa that has lots of experience. It seems like a 9,3X62, 375, 416 or 404 will do it everytime just like som manny other calibers. Get what you can handle really well and stuff it with good bullets.

This topic should be re-named: Best all purpose shooter

/ JOHAN

boddington did a survey of PH's opinions for CLIENTS...

375 HH
30-06
300 mag (various)

all the rest wound up as "noise"....

but, if you wanna say best all purpose 416, then it's the rigby... it can be loaded as slow and low as you want, and quote a bitter hotter than a 416 rem...

jeffe

So, shot placement is required to make the 416 and 375 capable, then does this mean the 500 Jefferys for instance will be a capable gun with poor shot placement, I think not, therefore I see the 416 Rem as capable of killing any game on this earth. It is my choice.

It even suits me personally as a stopping rifle and has proven its worth on ocassions along with the 404 Jefferys...I believe the 40 calibers to be as good as the 50 calibers under 99.9% of the hunting situations, but I will conceed the big dog sleeps on the poarch and the biggest DGR that you can shoot is probably pretty good advise for most.

I happen to shoot the 40s better than I do the recoiling 50s and that is a mighty important concern, one must know his tolerence, and I am afraid many folks do not, in fact I know many folks do not. Were I capable of shooting a 500 Jefferys under field positions I would probably do so...but the bottom line and answer to the original question is Yes, the 416 will get the job done...

About the 375? well, like Boddington said, it is marginal but it is on the right side of marginal for DG.....I think that sums it up...

As a matter of note, more DG PH's are armed with 375 H&Hs than any other caliber by a good margin and that should make a statement.

Karl -

A Cape Buff running anywhere with a 416 through the vitals is an anomaly of enormous magnitude, roughly equivalent to missing the whole beast at 10 paces with a 585 Nyati.

Think of it this way: when lives are really at stake and humans are firing at each other from 10 to 20 paces NO respectable law enforcement agency gives any credibility to increased stopping power over 600 FPE. The extra power of a 44 Mag or 454 Casull simply does NOTHING that a 10MM won't do. I fact, the highest one shot stop rating is for the 40 S&W with 155 gr bullets.

Big, angry critters are different from humans because they don't shoot back and they are...well...BIGGER. However, a 4 by 42 inch wound channel through the vitals generally discourages them.

Hi Sabot,
There is no secret that any animal can be taken with a 416. Shot placement is always the most critical factor along with bullet construction. But if you've watched a multitude of African hunting videos I think you'll have to agree that the 416 is more than the average hunter in the videos shoots well. Even the 416 is a rifle that the shooter has to adapt to with practice. With that same amount of practice a shooter can manage to shoot just as well with a larger bore rifle. There is no doubt that any larger bore rifle with a heavy for caliber bullet will cause more damage with the same shot placement. This is an awful lot like the 270 30-06 debate. If a person shoots a bigger bore rifle well it will be more effective. The shootability of a 416 Rigby and a 458 Lott is not all that different.
Take care,
Dave

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sabot:
A Cape Buff running anywhere with a 416 through the vitals is an anomaly of enormous magnitude, roughly equivalent to missing the whole beast at 10 paces with a 585 Nyati.

I would say the greatest number of Cape buff shot through the vitals run a certain way, no?

The anomaly are those that drop to the shot.

I can't speak of Cape buff myself but do know that water buff respond to a much large calibre in a measurable fashion.

However, a 4 by 42 inch wound channel through the vitals generally discourages them

Well how about two 4 by 42 inch holes then?
A 585 has twice the surface area of a 416

Karl.

I can understand the high regard for the Remington round and have used it myself. To state that larger bores offer nothing more in the way of authority, smacks of inexperience.

I may not have shot truckloads of game with a big bore rifle but, the 416 Rem(which I own) fires a 400 grain bullet of very high sectional density at what seems to be agreed as at the ideal velocity. Could anyone say definativly that any other bullet in the EXACT same place(which is the only fair way to consider it) would kill any faster? Or penetrate further? My answer would be no. I just don't think a bullet that is 54 thousands of an inch bigger in diameter would make a measurable difference(ala .470) I don't mean to take away the toys of some here( I want a 470 double too) But given the EXACT same bullet path that hole in the brain or heart just doesn't seem to be worth the debate between any 40 and up cartridge. JMHO

Why is it that so many address such issues from such a narrow perspective? It seems we speak only of perfect shot placement or poor shot placement, nothing in between, which is where the vast majority of shots hit. The presumption of perfect shot placement certainly opens the door for a host of possibilities, in regard to caliber selection, assuming all else is in order.

In providing greater energy transfer, tissue trauma and bone shattering capabilities, the heavier bullets of the larger calibers consistently exhibit superior authority on heavy game and can certainly make a difference on those "fringe hits", just off the heart or spine, for example, but still within the vitals. Greater reaction to the shot will speak of this, if you heed the message.

Again, I think highly of the .416 Remington and have stated so here many times. A very attractive and tractable round. However, I would not argue that it is a "stopper", or in any way as impressive as some of the larger chamberings, on heavy game. Is it "the best all-purpose bigbore"?
It just may be.

[ 09-26-2003, 18:31: Message edited by: Nickudu ]

Let's look at this a different way...

let's look at NEAR HITS (i think that's what Nick meant)....

We've all shot game in the heart/lungs/spine... and sometimes those are marginal hits...

say, oh, an eland or a moose....

30-06 is more than enough to take one, perfect shot... but what when the critter wont come out, you've only got high shoulder, or a racking shot...

Your 416 is a MUCH better round ... it'll tear through guts and bone and give you a near hit... and the critter does down... with a 30-06, you may have to pass the shot....

Take a 500 jeffery... It CAN be learned to be shot.. it's tougher than hell....

if you can place all your shots in, say, a 1# coffee can at 50 yards, and you happen to be using a 500, your shots will have more authority.... yet there's nothing WRONG with .416 or .423 at 2300-2400 fps... it's AWESOME...

I still believe teh rigby to be a better round, but only in my mind

416 or 500, that I shoot equaly well, in the lion and buffalo jungle? The 416 stays in camp

jeffe

With perfect shot placement you can kill a cape buff with a .22 Hornet, probably do it with a .22 lr.

But I agree that to state that the bigger rounds do not exhibit that much more on game performance is wrong. I agree whole heartedly with the "fringe" hits theory of Nic above, if you can shoot the .505 gibbs & Jeff rounds then thats the way I would lean for DG, no worries !!

.416 is a great caliber, I like the Rigby variation myself but thats personal preference, but to say that it will have as good as on game performance as my .585 Nyati would (assuming similar shot placement) would be unfair.

All in all though the .416 cal may be the best allround big bore, flat shooting like a .375 H&H and a little more grunt cutting the diff between itself and the .458 range of cartridges.

I haven't seen it yet on this thread, how about the 500 A-Square. I just built myself one and I'm sold. I realize that I don't need this much power for blacktails, but it is more ethical than a 223 Rem. I don't really feel that the flat shooting aspect of a big bore is as important as the pure energy delivery and penetration. The 500 a2 is more expensive to build than a 416 Rem. A trip to Africa is a lot also. I've never been there, but if I was looking a charging Buffalo in the eye, I would want all I could get. Shot placement is valid, but in the heat of the moment, we don't know how well we will preform. We can only speculate and practice.

Hi KevinNY,
The 416 is a great caliber but your line of thought is off by a long shot. The .059 difference in caliber also comes along with 100 grains of bullet weight. If you took the .059 off your 416 it would leave .357 which I don't think you would say compares to your 416 performance wise plus the weight loss that would come with the caliber. The 50's are only .035 larger than the .475 but come with another 100 grains of bullet weight and another step up in performance. Nick has the best reason for a step up in caliber. People that are consistently accurate in the field can and will get by with a 375 and there is the argument about the 375 being easier for the average shooter but there are numerous people that can shoot the big bores just as well with an upgrade in terminal performance.
Take care,
Dave

Interesting comments...I m ust shamelessly admit that I am really learning something from the responses to this thread.

I like the "off center" shot arguement, and can see that the bigger bores make a big difference in that situation. And, that situation WILL come up for every hunter, sooner or later. In these cases you are talking the need for follow up shots with the 416, where you are done with a 475 or 500.

I now sort of see the 416 Rem as the African equivalent of the 338 Win Mag in the US. Yes, you can take all game humanely and safely with it, BUT you can't make any serious mistakes at the top of the food chain. Both will shoot '06 trajectories using bullets with decent sectional density and BC for plains game, and still work in close with heavy bullets and very high SDs required for DG.

I do think in both cases, some of the upper limit potential is not realized by many shooters that have not worked with 300 gr bullets in the 338 and 500 grainers in the 416 Rem. If you have not give Hawk Bullets in these weights a try...they are truely devastating.

Sabot:
Your comments add credence to a theory that bullet surface is vital to energy transfer, and effect.

Therefore the 510 Wells, and above, have considerably more effect then just diameter.

458 Lott is the most practical, most common PH stopper rifle.

The wells is a huge jump in recoil, but, the 375, 416, and 458 are all in the same ballpark.

s

Socrates -

The bigger diameters also place restrictions on trajectory and range as well as bring recoil to the threshold of tolerance. This weeds out potential users and narrows the range of applications. Yes, they are better in a DG situation, but no, you don't need to go back to camp because you have a puny 416 Rem. The 416 has the power of a 458 and the trajectory of a 375, so I guess its the obvious choice among the 3 "small bores" you listed.

416's would be nice, Rigby being my pick, because I could open it up to 510 Wells if I got bored;-)Pun intended, and, since I have a 375, 416 is a bit too close in caliber.

I like the 458's because of the variety of ammo, cost of the ammo, and the ability to shoot 458 win solids in a pinch.

On the other hand, a 416 rigby case, opened to 500, with a 350 grain hollow point would have a very flat trajectory, given it's velocity, probably 3000+Fps.

Plus, if you are in Africa you can load 600 grain, or bigger, bullets in the wells, and kill game on both ends of the rifle .

It's the 140 ft-lbs of recoil that the wells brings that really gets my attention...

For that reason, the 458 Lott, for me, is the largest realistic big bore to go with, unless you down load the wells...

You get the general idea I can't make up my mind, and the Ruger rep is in town today. Should I but a 458 Lott Ruger if they offer it at 1200 bucks, or buy a CZ 416 for 700-800?

gs

I have found the 416 all that I need for Buffalo or anything else but I will restate that the big dog sleeps on the poarch and the bigger bores are better stoppers and borderline hits may make them even more so I guess...

I don't foresee a border line hit for myself on a Buffalo as they are an awfully big target with a lot of room for error and still get the lungs.

I have dropped Buffalo many times in their tracks with a 416 or 404 and all of them needed finishing shots, but they could not quite get up I don't think, didn't give them much of an opertunity, I choose the way they die as opposed to giving them that option as does Mark Sullivan. and I have also seen them run 200 yards shot smak in the heart with both 40 and 50 caliber guns....Again I am more than satisfied with the lesser big bores on buffalo...

I have had only one instant kill on buffalo and that was with a 416 Rem. and a North Fork 370 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS, range was 150 yards as I recall.

But in a charge situation the 458 Lott and up are an awfully nice position to be in at that time I would suspect....

In the wash, the bigger guns are better if you can shoot them, they just have to be by the very fact they are more powerfull...So far I have not needed the extra power and may someday change my mind due to an unforseen event, but I doubt it as long as I can still shoot....I still think good shooting is the key that we should all strive for and that comes only from shooting.

The 416 is probably the best "all around", still manageble by most. The larger bores are not for "all around". They are for when the usual becomes unusual. They are for when the target was a little closer than you wanted, a little more hidden than you wanted and when he didn't react like you wanted. The larger bores are more of a "fighting" tool who's first priority is to break a target down that aggression might be stopped. Their "killing" power may be no greater than others, but their "stopping" power is their forte.

You know a couple of years ago I purchased a 416 Rem and a 300 Weatherby and I was convinced I have the perfect two gun combination.

With that said I've purchased countless guns since then and enjoy learning about the +'s & -'s of each new gun and caliber I buy.

I'm now under the impression I need atleast one of each!!