I was wondering if anyone has tried this combination. I've been using H4831sc with very good results, but can't find it locally.

I have several pounds of Re-17 & thought I read that some have used it in the 416 calibers. Any ideas on a safe starting point?

Thanks

A staring point would be 77 grains of RL 17 with 400 grain bullets. You can work up from there but that should put you close to 2200 FPS assuming a 24" barrel. I use 84 grains in my Heym with North Fork 400's for around 2375 FPS, but another rifle built by D'Arcy Echols only needs 81 grains to get to the same velocity. My OAL of the loaded rounds are 3.61", so you will need to back off a bit if you are going to seat them deeper.

Good info, thanks. I use the North Forks as well, I was at 91 grains of H4831sc and never quite reached 2300 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by euge:
Good info, thanks. I use the North Forks as well, I was at 91 grains of H4831sc and never quite reached 2300 fps.

I had similar low velocities with H4831.
But either Varget or RL-15 easily get 400-grainers over 2400 fps.
My 24"-McGowen-barreled rifle required 80 grains of RL-15 or 81 grains of Varget to reach 2400 fps.
McGowen has a .425" groove spec.
380-grain North Fork: 85 grains Varget >>> +2525 fps
340-grain North Fork: 87 grains Varget >>> +2700 fps

I stick with Varget due to the excellent results in my rifle (velocity and accuracy), as well as the temperature insensitivity.

RL-17 is a bit slower but is a compact and energetic powder so it may deliver top velocities with heavier charges
than used with RL-15 or Varget,
but with a bit more recoil than RL-15 or Varget.
I suspect RL-17 has good temperature insensitivity too.

Ray Atkinson got higher velocities with H4831 due to using a Lothar-Walther barrel with groove spec of 0.423".

The first and greatest ever magazine DGR is the 404 Jeffery of 1905.
So silly that it has so many different barrel and bullet specs.


LW and Pac-Nor: 0.423" groove
Krieger: 0.424" groove
McGowen: 0.425" groove

Most 404 Jeffery bullets are .423" diameter.

Amazing: CIP barrel spec is for a .418" groove, .412" bore, but bullet is .422" spec.


Here is what the the CIP throat looks like when used in a .423"-grooved barrel:



Dave Manson reamer throat is same as CIP but it works in the usual bullet and barrel specs accepted as modern now:
.423" bullet diameter and groove diameters of .423" to .425".
Note Manson quotes the bore diameter of a Krieger barrel, for piloting purposes.



It is a great wonder that the 404 Jeffery works as well as it does, with all that nonsense surrounding it.
Not hard to sort out the nonsense though, just need to know your barrel and your bullets.
It is still the greatest ever DGR in spite of the nonsense.

I have used a max load of 95 grs. of WW2 4831, the stuff Jack O'Connor liked, and with a 400 gr. bullet I got 2653 plus FPS, but that was in my old 27" barrel Jefferys..Sent these loads to North Fork and Mike Brady got 259? FPS in his test barrel, and said pressure were within specs..

My standard load in a 404 Jefferys is 93 grs. of H4831, with the old stuff, and I get 2400 plus or minus a tad, in my present barrel..I did load some of the new H4831 with 93 grs. and got 2412 FPS in my present 24" barrel, and very mild pressure.

I also get 2400 with RL-15 without any trouble..As Rip said,I do use Lothar Walthar barrels with the exception of the old Jefferys rifle I had.

BTW, I just purchased a Douglas 404 barrel, didn't realize they even made a .423 barrel but they do! and at a very reasonable price I might add.

This old business of a 404 Jefferys at 2100 to 2200 FPS is totally without merit, and an injustice to a fine caliber..The 404 has almost the water capacity of a 416 Rigby, another caliber that suffers from yellow journalism in the magazines and Internet...both of these calibers will out perform the 416 Rem and 416 Ruger.

2100 to 2300 in a 404 Jefferys or a 416 Rigby is 1920 berdan primers and stick powder. I know they both made their reputation at those mild velocities, but they are not much of an improvement over 375 H&H at 2100 FPS.

There is a big difference in performance when you riv up 404 or 416 Rigby, so I suggest you load a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS, thats a well proven combination with both the 404 and the 416 Rigby.

Getting 2600 FPS with a 404 and 2700 FPS with a 416 Rigby is no problem at all but I suggest it is overkill and not needed and recoil is at best hanious!

The 404 has been my go to caliber for many years and there is a big difference between a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 and the same bullet at 2100. I have used both on buffalo and whatever.

I suppose its argueable, but thats my assesment on the caliber.

Ray,

Ah ha! Your high velocity rifle was a 27"-barreled "Olde Original" Jeffery?
That might have had an even tighter barrel than .423" groove.
That would sure explain the high velocity.

Good to know Douglas makes a .423 barrel now, not updated on their web site yet.
I guess one has to call Douglas and ask ...
1:14" twist?

When I load the 404 Jeffery next, I will be using RL-17.

Here is the most generic situation possible for QuickLOAD prediction:

Using the 400-grain Woodleigh RN SN that has .422" diameter.
Using a .423"-grooved barrel of 24" length.

However, max pressure allowed is bumped up to 63,000 psi,
not the antique C.I.P. pressure limit of 52,939 psi for the 404 Jeffery:



Sticking to 52,939 psi pressure limit for above scenario:

83.4 grains of RL-17 (93% filling) >>> 2429 FPS @ 52,939 PSI

Checking my previous Varget & RL-15 loads in this scenario shows they were OK:

80.0 grains of RL-15 (94% filling) >>> 2439 FPS @ 57,305 PSI
81.0 grains of Varget (98% filling) >>> 2444 FPS @ 60,675 PSI


My McGowen ".425" barrel of 24" length and 1:10" Twist lost less than 50 FPS with the same Woodleigh bullet.
My recollection by looking at previous chronograph notes, 78 F was the temperature that day:

80.0 grains of RL-15 >>> 2394 FPS
81.0 grains of Varget >>> 2401 FPS

That is strange with all the different diameters, mine is a 24" Krieger .424. I have Varget on hand as well & the weather is finally starting to break. I'll try both & see what happens.

Thanks all for the help.

Euge,

Short for Eugene? My great grandfather was called "Euge."

Your Krieger .424"-grooved barrel will probably have some small pressure and velocity let-off compared to the QuickLOAD predictions above.
However, lot-to-lot variation of powder is the main sticky wicket with QuickLOAD.
Your mileage may vary.
Captain Obvious says so.
Variation in bullet properties for various 400-grainers is the next biggest sticky wicket.
That one is easily overcome by sticking with one make of bullet in trying various powders.

It would be very interesting to see what chronograph velocities you get with Varget or RL-17 and a 400-grain bullet.

RIP,

I'll let you know the results, it may be a few weeks.

Eugene is my middle name, after a fire & brimstone Baptist preacher I believe originally from Kentucky.

Ah ha! The "euge" handle is "Justified."

In the "generic" QuickLOAD simulation above there is one excellent powder that beats RL-17 by 5 fps velocity at same low pressure: H4350
But it does so at 102% useable case filling.
That is a good thing for avoiding bullet setback under recoil.

H4350 Extreme is a guaranteed temperature stable powder from my experience with it in the .375 Weatherby, good as it gets in that department,
just like Varget Extreme.

Hodgdon H4350 86.0 grains (102% filling) >>> 2434 FPS @ 52,939 PSI
with a Woodleigh 400-grain RN SN.

Your powder lot mileage may vary.

Been using RL 15 and it does great
One thing, in Africa all my shots are less then 100 yards so I'm satisfied
But might try RL 17 one day

Its no trick to get 2400 FPS with RL-15 and a 400 gr. bullet, and I use a wad with it.

But I see no reason to use any powder but IMR or H4831 with about 93 grs and a 400gr. bullet, mild as hell pressure and accurate in every 404 I have used it in..You won't improve on it...

I understand its hard to find powders these days but I bought 3 pounds of H4831 in Twin Falls two weeks ago at Reds Trading Post..I have not seen any RL powder but two pounds of RL-17 at Spts. Whse in Twin and I got it because nobody knew what it was!