Now, I know that this is a miss-application of a heavyweight rifle, but play along. Let's suppose a poor person only had a .458WM to hunt all game. If he wanted a 200yard gun for deer, elk, etc., what bullet would you choose and what would be your target velocity. Do you have load data? How do the Northfork 300 & 350 semi-spitzers do? How much of a limitation is the low SD? Is the recoil fairly light with the 300gr bullets?

It seems that a person could build a load that approximated the 300gr .375 load (300gr at 2400-2500) at somewhat shorter ranges.

I know that there are hundreds of better choices for this purpose, but I'm wondering what's possible.

Thanks for any ideas.

RangerBob.

405 Remington flat point. CCI 250 primer and 72 to 78 grains of IMR3031 (find out what works most accurately in your rifle). Kill them deer, elk, and antelope dead, dead, dead out beyond 200 yards.

I would think something along the lines of the Federal facotry 350 gr. load, or the Northfork or Barnes lightweight bullets would work really well. I'm planning on hog hunting with the Federal load this fall.

I'd use a 350 gr speer or hornady loaded to 2400-2500 fps. I've used such a load in my 458 Lott, and they are both mild recoiling and very accurate. I would not hesitate using such loads inside 250 yds, when zeroed @ 200

I've recently begun tinkering with the .458 Win Mag and find it a fun cartridge to work with and very accurate. I've got a Ruger No 1 and an old model M77 and love them both. I shoot mostly reduced loads with the 405gr Rem JSP and it's very pleasant and affordable to shoot, yet is a good choice for flattening anything short of coastal brownies easily here in North America. I too think this round can be very versatile in the hands of a reloader and can be made to perform out to 250 yards pretty easily with the right bullets and much like the old buffalo hunters of yesteryear, even further if you really know your rifle and load.



The 500gr Barnes X bullet has a SD of .341 and a BC of .526 so this can be a real long range performer, especially in the Ruger No 1 where you aren't limited to standard COAL like a magazine rifle. Their 450gr X bullet is SD .306 and BC .488 and also a good candidate.



This round has alot of potential and is affordable to shoot unless you go with the super custom bullets for more serious applications. It's got power to spare on anything I'll ever run into and 95% of my shooting is with reduced loads with the 405gr Rem JSP at just over 1900fps. I plan to go to Alaska one of these days and this will be my choice most likely, with something like the Woodleigh 500gr SN.



I'm a huge advocate for the One Rifle battery. I'm not sure if the .458 Win would be it, but then again why not? If you work with a rifle and use it on everything you can become awfully good with it and pick your shots. Just like the hunters of the black powder days, you work within the limits of your rifle and once you know what those are you can do nearly anything with it if you do your hunting BEFORE the shot and not after.



I love the .458 Win, it's fun and I've always gone for the big bores anyways.



PS: Yes recoil with lighter bullet is definitely less. The Speer hot-core 350gr is a tough bullet and of course the NorthFork bullets also. Plus for the vast majority of game you're talking about you don't need to go with Max loads, so recoil is modest and it's not abusive to shoot. Swift A-Frame is another fantastic bullet.

I have a problem with folks that buy .458s or whatever then want a load that doesn't kick them, which tells me their recoil tolerance is not in that league and they should be shooting less gun....

If I were to hunt deer and elk with the 458 I would use a full power load with 500gr. bullets of whatever make was handy...If I want to shoot a 300 or 350 gr. bullet then I will shoot a 338 or 375...

I assure you a 458 shooting any 500 gr. bullet, even a solid is capable of killing deer or elk from any angle and at any range up to 300 yds and it will shoot flat enough to hit with at that range if you know your guns trajectory, not whats in print but your guns proven by testing trajectory....forget the wind.

You can certainly use a .458 Win. Mag. for plainsgame, and I've done it, but you should have softs along as well as solids. Quite honestly, if you have a .458, you're better off taking along an elk-type rifle for plainsgame, etc., instead of trying to make the Four-Five-Eight do it all.

I'll never forget a zebra I shot in the front of the chest with a .458 Win. Mag. from about fifty yards out. I was using 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids @ just under 2100 fps. At the shot, the zebra did nothing but turn around and walk away! Just to the left of the tail, straight through the left ham, was an exit hole with blood running down the zerbra's leg. As soon as he turned sideways, I busted him through the right shoulder and put him down for good.

Next zebra, same safari, .300 Win. Mag. with 180 gr. bullets @ 3050 fps. One shot, and the zebra dead in his tracks just as soon as the rifle went off.

My opinion is that the .458 Win. Mag. should be reserved for the big, heavy tough, dangerous game animals it was designed for -- not plainsgame.

AD

I don't understand the thinking of using a 500 gr bullet in a 458 when used against thin skin game. The only reason for doing so is so that one doesn't have the wrong the bullet in the gun when going after heavy game. The terminal performance of a softer bullet at higher velocity will be much more effective.



Not everyone can afford a safe full of every different caliber. A large bore can be used in place of a medium bore, so long as one uses suitable bullets. I also fail to see why using reduced loads is so bad?



Some folks will get maximum satisfaction on their hunts by choosing a given gun, maybe a handgun, maybe a black powder gun, maybe a cowboy gun, maybe an elepant gun, or maybe the "proper gun for the job". Don't begrudge others that don't make the same choice as you. They want to get maximum satisfaction out of there hunt, whether it be plains game, or dangerous game.



If I had a Ferrari, would I be wrong for not driving it full speed all the time?



Some folks get satisfaction simply from owning guns, and shooting them very little. Others of us get satisfaction by shooting them alot. I don't think any big bore shooter will argue that reduced loads allow one to shoot more, both due to componet cost and reduced recoil.

I have a problem with folks that buy .458s or whatever then want a load that doesn't kick them, which tells me their recoil tolerance is not in that league and they should be shooting less gun....

Ray,

In my opinion you are wrong on a couple of counts.

You have said many times that you are OK with the recoil of the 404 and 416 Remington. However, I will give you a 100% guarantee if shoot the 404 or 416 all day and all night you will find the recoil a bit heavy going. In fact one good nights spotlight shooting roos will stop you.

Now of course your response would probably be that you would use the 223 and that is fine and the majority of people would agree with you. However, there are plenty of shooters who just simply prefer shooting a big bullet loaded back rather than a smaller calibre loaded to full power. For many of us, the powerful rifle loaded back almost has the feel of the big V8 with manual transmission that just seems to idle along. Think of this way. You enjoy the 404 Jeffrey in nice wood. I am sure you would not even begin to mount an argument that such a setup is superior to a 416 Remingon with fibreglass stock.

You may not believe this Ray, but there are quite a few people out there who like to fiddle with loads etc. and by the way those people are why you can now buy 458 Lott brass etc. and etc.

Mike

Paul H,

I agree, well said. It's potentially a very versatile round due to the number of component bullets on the market in that caliber, etc. Admittedly it's grossly overpowered for most NA game in it's typical factory 500gr loading. With 400-450gr spire pointed bullets such as the Swift A-Frame, NorthFork bullets, etc it's got better BC to help with longer ranges a bit. Velocities from 2000-2300 fps with such bullets is easily accomplished and gives it a range of 250-300 yds with little difficulty if you know your rifle/load.

I've always liked big, straight-wall cases and the 458 is a fine cartridge available in many fine standard length action bolt rifles. If someone wanted to make this a Primary game rifle it's not as far-fetched as it appears at first glance. The handloader can really make a rifle sing if he wishes.

The Ferrari illustration is a good one, no offense to our friend Mr Atkinson. I'm not bothered by recoil generally, but I do know I simply don't quite need a 500gr bullet at 2100fps either. Believe me I'm all for using heavier calibers and "enough gun", no-one who knows me has ever doubted that, lol. For the biggest bears up north? Hell yes, I'd go with the 500gr SN full power loads because I have that ability with this M77 and end-to-end penetration at any angle can be had. But for most other things I can tone it down just a bit and still apply some major wallop on any critter I'm after. I just plain like my .458 M77... It's got a beautiful finish/fit and it's a tack-driver to boot.

RangerBob,

You will also find that it is possible to sight in a .458 with 400 grain bullets at 200 yards, and at 300 yards it will be within 3" of elevation of the vaunted .416 Remington, if the latter is also sighted in at 200 yards. Nothing wrong with that.

I see no problem using the 458 win mag for plains game. Use the 400 grain Woodleigh PP bullet sighted 3" high at 100 yards and it will be about a foot low at 300 yards. Aim dead on from 0 to 250 yards. If the game is farther out, sneak closer.

My Ruger #1 shoots the 350 Barnes X at 2400 and puts them into 1 hole. This is a middle of the road charge but I know you can get them to do 2550 fps no sweat! They should do great.

Billy Dixon killed an Indian at 1528 yards with a Sharps 50-90, and a .458 Win mag shoot's alot flatter than that!

Yeah, but Billy Dixon's shot was pure luck. You could not duplicate it onece in 100 tries.

indy,
in 100 times?

I could WALK a 458 into that range, with a decent spotter...

first shot? NOT A CHANCE for me

jeffe

I used a 458 with 405 grain Remington bullets at 1800fps for game up to moose. My cousin used the same load on a kudu and some other stuffthat I can't remember. I wasn't that impressed with the load and probably wouldn't use it again. Similar shots with a 300 or 338 resulted in quicker kills.

Bump the muzzle velocity up 250 fps to 300 fps and you would be amazed at the improvement!

Mike375,
You make a pretty good point....guess I can't argue with that kind of logic....so what else can we talk about?

Mike,
ya'll used a thinskin game bullet, lightly constructed, on large animals. i wouldn't be surprised of your penetration wasn't what you would have thought AND that the bullet came apart.

try that with a barnes 400X at 2400....

jeffe

Mike375,
You make a pretty good point....guess I can't argue with that kind of logic....so what else can we talk about?

What about Purdey making a rifle for us using a Wby Mark V stainless barreled action and in 30/378 English style of course.

Mike

Mr. Atkinson,

I have lurked on this board for several years. I have come to greatly respect your opinions and your knowlege base.

I recently aquired a Ruger #1 in .458. I wasn't looking for this rifle. I was looking for a 9.3 or a .375 in either a bolt action or a single shot. However, this Ruger became available at a great price and I had the right trade material to make it happen. I find the Ruger #1 to be beautiful, elegant, and affordable.

I have no intention of taking this rifle to Africa. I may never hunt anything larger than whitetail with it. But I still like the gun and want to have fun with it.

My plan is to start with some 300-350gr cast bullet loads (maybe paperpatched) that run up to 2000fps. The thought is to replicate the balistics of the 45-90 or 450BPE in a classic-looking single shot. Since these ballistics worked well, on light game, for many years, I believe that they will work now. I will then go a little faster than that (up to 2400fps).

I may try some of the 300-400gr semi-spitzers (NF or Barnes) to see what they will do at longer range.

I will also try some 500+gr cast bullets at 1500fps in the event I need a short range load for wood's elk.

I doubt I will ever shoot many factory loads. They are too expensive, they recoil too much, and they are far too stout for the game I will seek.

I like playing with guns and reloading for different uses ( I have a dandy .303 Brit load for squirrels). I want to use this .458 as a platform for experimentation. I don't think that there is anything wrong with that.

This is my first post on this forum (I just registered). I am glad that so many understood my goals and motivation and bothered to respond (Thank You).

Mr. Atkinson - I hope that you better understand what I am doing and can respect it even if it is not your approach. I will continue to look forward to your posts and what I can learn from them.

RangerBob

RangerBob
Welcome to the Forum. You will really enjoy your No1 458.
I have a No1 in 45/70, and I have had 2 different 458's. I am currently using a Double rifle in 450 No2 [uses .458 bullets]. My favorite bullet for deer and pigs in a .458 bore rifle is the Hornady 350gr Round Nose. I have killed quite a bit of game with this bullet at speeds from 1890 fps [45/70] to 2330 fps [this is the speed it regulates in my double]. I would not hesitate to use this bullet on elk or black bear.
Keep us posted on what loads you use and how they work.

Ranger Bob,
I second the 350s.. and suggest you invest in a couple hundred rem 405s.. i think the shipping from mudway is more than the actuall cost of the bullets.


a 405, at 1500, is NOTHING to shoot.. at 1800, it's a warm walk.. at 2500, it's rivid

jeffe

My No 1 never has done well with cast bullets so far, very erratic. With jacketed it's fine and I've not yet gotten back to experimenting with the cast bullets yet (I don't want to give up on them yet, as I think bore size is very crucial with cast).

I have the same plans for my 458 No 1 as you... for an all-purpose plinker and deer/elk rifle with reloads. It is indeed a BEAUTIFUL rifle in every way. Mine's got a .460" bore and hence that is probably the source of my cast bullet misery.

I've been using jacketed and it's great with those. Try the 405gr Rem JSP as it's very affordable and accurate and I've heard alot of good reports on it on deer/elk in the field. Plan to use the No 1 on deer this fall.

It's the strongest and simplest rifle ever built I think. Not to mention very classic and elegant, considering it's cost. With the action it has a short overall length and it therefore handy to carry.

I recently picked up an M77 in .458 too and have quickly fallen in love with it as well. The .458 has been fun to tinker with and the M77 is a real tackdriver.

One possible way to fix your cast bullet problems, is to get a Lee push through sizer and size your .458 bullets down to .452. You can then paper patch them back up to 460-462 by using the right weight paper. That will fill your bore, protect the base of the bullet, and eliminate leading. Some have driven pure lead bullets to 2000+fps and harder lead bullets to 3000fps by using the paper patch.

If you don't want the hassel, I would look for a bullet that drops from the mold at .461 or .462. Bullet fit is very important with smokeless loads. Also, look for a bullet that fills the throat of your gun so that the bullet will not get tilted on the way to the rifling.

You may already know all this, but FWIW.

RangerBob

Thanks Bob,

Yeah I've got some .460" GC cast bullets I recently got and have not had time to mess with them yet. I'm hoping exact groove diameter will be enough, just need to load some and find out. Most cast from bulletmakers come .458" or .459" and that's just not working in my No 1. Since jacketed works well I abandoned that project for the time being. I do love this No 1 and won't give up on it cuz it's simply a beautiful and elegant rifle. I'll just have to find time to tinker and solve the cast bullet problem, cuz I kind of wanted this single-shot to be like a buffalo-style rifle of the old days... Heavy cast-bullet shooter at modest velocities. The M77 I'll set up as my heavy-hitter with jacketed bullets for other things.

I wish you luck with paper patched lead bullets in a 458 Win mag. You will need it.

There is a fundamental difference between the BP cartridge chambers and that of a 458 Winnie. The 458 Winnie has a VERY LONG THROAT, and this causes your cast bullets to fail to properly engrave riflings, as the riflings are torn out due to the forces encountered. Jacketed bullets do not suffer this problem. If you use BP in your 458 Win case, set the bullets out as far as possible, and paper patch you may be okay. You will have to keep the velocities down to below 1500 fps or so.

Of course I may be full of it, afterall looksie at my handle. I haven't owned several 458 Winnies over the years, or shot a few thousand rounds through them, or anything.

What does Ray say that is so great? I find he contradicts himself about every other post or so.

Dude, you need to have .001-.002 over the groove diameter to optimize cast loads in your rifle. If your cast bullets are exactly the groove diameter, it's hit and miss. Cast bullets NEED to be over size to work. But then again, you might get lucky. Good luck.

That's becoming quite obvious with this gun at least. But it's hard to even find anything over .460" so may just give up the cast bullet concept for this one. Maybe I can use them in my .450 Marlin. And yes, the long throat is probably my other issue. I've heard this several times now and I don't doubt it. On the one hand in the single shot rifle it enables seating bullets out far from the normal COAL to maximize powder capacity, yet at the same time makes cast bullets difficult apparently. I've got two difficulties to overcome with cast, but for now I'll leave that for another day. The 405gr Rem JSP is cheap and surprisingly accurate, so I'll stick with it and other jacketed rounds for the time being.

Thanks fellas, great post and I learn something new here every day it seems.

Hey,

Don't give up on cast boolits. All you need to do is order a custom mold in whatever size you need. I've had great luck with Mountain Molds. Dan is great to work with and has a quality product.

Mike

He probably isn't interested in castin his own bullets. But, that is one way.

458 Get the molds and find somebody to cast some bullets for you and see what happens. Since you have an over size bore, I suggest you try to get some un-sized bullets (as cast out of the mold) and try them. I had an over-sized 03A3 years ago and ended up with over-sized as cast bullets and they solved the problem (.312) .

I've got access to a Lyman 350gr plain base mold that throws bullets at .464 diameter when cast from wheel weights. In my #1, you can seat the unsized bullet and shells will still chamber easily.

Also, the bullet is long enough that you can seat it "out" so that one lube groove is exposed. That will eat up some of the throat.

If you are interested, I could send you 20 to try out.

Bob.

Unless you really want to cast bullets I recommend the 405 grain Remingtons for a plinking or deer bullet. Midway has them on sale from time to time for around $.05. I wasn't satisfied with them for large game but had a blast using them on woodchucks.