I realized a dream at DSC and bought a Merkle 470 NE. I am looking for any info I can get from experienced shooters on loading and thoughts in general about the gun and caliber.

Welcome to the club! I also have a Merkel 470, I love it. Some quick advice: get a copy of Graham Wrights book, reload if you don't already, get some shooting sticks or build a standing bench.

Mac will be along shortly with much better advice than I.

I do reload and have sticks. Where can I find this book?

Rob, you should be ready to go...Graham's book is most useful in dealing with the older BP and NFB loads. Do you know what the rifle was regulated with? Merkel's tend to be quite accurate and well-regulated. Buy a couple boxes of it's ammunition and get git 'em!

Amazon should have copies. It is a great book, and all of the data is what the author has developed himself over a couple years of shooting and reloading for most of the british double rifles.

I use Reload 15, Federal 215 primers, 5 grs of filler and a Woodlieghs bullet. Shots are 1 inch or less apart at 50 yards.cant remember the load, but it is on this forum under reloading.

Congrats!

At least a couple of decades!

Some of the info in those 3 editions are from work done in the 1970s! The Aussies certainly brought back the classic British double rifle for us.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Amazon should have copies. It is a great book, and all of the data is what the author has developed himself over a couple years of shooting and reloading for most of the british double rifles.

I'm not sure what it was regulated with. I'm going to try Hornady first.

85.0 RL 15, 215, Woody soft and 3/4" long peice of backer rod is a good starting point.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
85.0 RL 15, 215, Woody soft and 3/4" long peice of backer rod is a good starting point.

That is good advice,my Merkel regulated at 87 grs of Rx 15,I would recommend using a chrono to determine how fast your loads are shooting,I have found that Rx15 is not consistent,I have two different batches of this powder,one is right at 87 GR for regulation & the newer batch is at 90 GR for regulation.

I had a Searcy .470 that I shot with IMR-4831 mostly and some RL-15 sometimes..I hunted a lot of buffalo with that super accurate rifle that Butch borrowed and won the world class match with it, and later traded me out of it for a 450-400-3"...

That .470 was regulated with a 500 gr. bullet at 2245 FPS and was a flinch making machine..I shot several buffalo with that load and it sure put buff down hard.

After awhile I grew tired of that punishment so I loaded it down to 2020 FPS, where it regulated well and sighted it in with RL-15 and 5 grs. of filler behind a 500 gr. softs and solids,and Guess what?, it still hammered buff to the ground, but was so much nicer to shoot..I even tossed the Aleve bottle away!!

Load it down a bit and enjoy the gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
85.0 RL 15, 215, Woody soft and 3/4" long peice of backer rod is a good starting point.

That is good advice,my Merkel regulated at 87 grs of Rx 15,I would recommend using a chrono to determine how fast your loads are shooting,I have found that Rx15 is not consistent,I have two different batches of this powder,one is right at 87 GR for regulation & the newer batch is at 90 GR for regulation.

My exact experience too. I have 5 different lots of RL15. Ran out of my first 24lbs that I started with on the 470. First lot took 85.0 grains. The next lot I started working off of took 91.0 grains for same speed and regulation. So buy RL15 in large lots so you don't have to screw around.

I don't like using fillers.
I use imr 4831 and reloader 22
They fill the case much more and no filler needed.
108 and 122 grains respectively. IIRC.
Slightly more recoil, but it never bothered me.
Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
I don't like using fillers.
I use imr 4831 and reloader 22
They fill the case much more and no filler needed.
108 and 122 grains respectively. IIRC.
Slightly more recoil, but it never bothered me.
Nitro

That is of course some more good advice,I prefer Rx15 because of lower recoil,my Heym was only 9 lbs 6 oz originally & recoil was quite severe with 4831.

I've never used a filler. What material do you use?

1/2 in. x 20 ft. Caulk Backer Rod:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/MD-...-Rod-71480/202066515

Best stuff since sliced bread.
Slice off a 3/4" length of that 1/2" diameter foam rod with a sharp blade and load up if using RL-15 or Varget.

You can even use a smaller piece over the top of H4831SC if there is any air space in the case.

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My Merkel 140-A was said to be regulated with Federal Premium factory loads with the TBSH solid.
It came with a 50-meter target stating that.
That target was a reduced-size photocopy that showed two out-of round holes (two bullets into one hole for each barrel) with about 3 cm vertical spread, and 1 cm horizontal spread between the holes, but not labeled as to which barrel did which pair of overlapping holes.
What I got with the handload load below is labeled for right and left barrels (R and L) and sequence of shots (1,2,3,4), shot with factory express sights:

109 grains of H4831SC
500-grain Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid
Federal GM215M primer
BELL brass case
COL 3.883"
No filler:



I call this the "George Hoffman Memorial Load" in my Merkel 470 NE. George Hoffman used a 470 NE besides his .416 Hoffman, and he used H4831 powder in the double.

It seems that Merkel is happy to regulate their rifles to get both barrels converged at 50 meters.
They do a pretty good job of that.
Better with the horizontal than with the vertical on my rifle.


The same load as above but substituting the 500-grain GSC FN Solid and COL was 3.962":



The barrels crossed slightly, even though the velocity was slightly slower. I cannot explain the dynamics of all that, barrel time, muzzle rise in recoil, etc., specifics of all that ... or just my shooting ...

Overall, I did better with H4831SC and no filler than with RL-15 and filler.

I did discover that RL-15 loads can vary greatly with lot of powder and with make of brass.
And bullet type too of course. The shorter Woodleigh cup and core soft and FMJ may require an extra grain of powder compared to the TBSH and GSC FN to get velocity equal.
And 5 grains of tightly packed Dacron fiber snow storm filler versus 1 grain foam plug filler (like caulking backer rod) might affect it too.

Yes, anywhere from 85 to 92 grains of RL-15 with various makes of bullet, brass, primer, filler.

They say that Federal used something like RL-15 and a "216" primer hotter than the 215 we have access to, but no filler.

I found the Federal factory loads to be less consistent than the case-filling H4831SC handloads.

If there is any airspace at all in the case with a particular bullet, I just stick a small slice of the foam rod filler in to keep the powder from moving around. Shake the cartridge next to your ear as the test. No compression needed, just a solid fill.

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quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
I don't like using fillers.
I use imr 4831 and reloader 22
They fill the case much more and no filler needed.
108 and 122 grains respectively. IIRC.
Slightly more recoil, but it never bothered me.
Nitro

That is of course some more good advice,I prefer Rx15 because of lower recoil,my Heym was only 9 lbs 6 oz originally & recoil was quite severe with 4831.

I'm in the same boat with a Heym just under 10lbs. I have good loads worked up in 4831 as well but the difference in recoil is more surprising than one would think.

Mac, speaking of recoil, how's the 577 build coming?

In my 10.6 pound Merkel, I prefer the more accurate and lower peak pressure load: H4831SC
I cannot really appreciate the small recoil difference.
Plus, the H4831SC load is just at convergence at 50 meters, dead-on, while the RL-15 load to equal the velocity is well past convergence, crossed at 50 meters.

Here are actual loads of very similar velocity run through the RCBS recoil calculator (that requires increments of 10 fps MV for numerical entry):

92.0 grains of RL-15 (plus 5 grains of Dacron filler added to the bullet weight for calculation)
500 grain Barnes XLC
2141 fps ave rounded to 2140 fps for the RCBS recoil calculator I am using.
Recoil:
KE = 68.4 ftlbs
Vel. = 20.3 fps

109.0 grains of H4831SC and no filler
500 grain TBSH
2138 fps ave rounded to 2140 fps for the RCBS recoil calculator I am using.
Recoil:
KE = 74.8 ftlbs
Vel. = 21.3 fps

In the same 10.6 pound Merkel, let YOUR shoulder be the judge.

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quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, speaking of recoil, how's the 577 build coming?

It's done. Chris had it in his booth at both shows.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
In my 10.6 pound Merkel, I prefer the more accurate and lower peak pressure load: H4831SC
I cannot really appreciate the small recoil difference.
Plus, the H4831SC load is just at convergence at 50 meters, dead-on, while the RL-15 load to equal the velocity is well past convergence, crossed at 50 meters.

Here are actual loads of very similar velocity run through the RCBS recoil calculator (that requires increments of 10 fps MV for numerical entry):

92.0 grains of RL-15 (plus 5 grains of Dacron filler added to the bullet weight for calculation)
500 grain Barnes XLC
2141 fps ave rounded to 2140 fps for the RCBS recoil calculator I am using.
Recoil:
KE = 68.4 ftlbs
Vel. = 20.3 fps

109.0 grains of H4831SC and no filler
500 grain TBSH
2138 fps ave rounded to 2140 fps for the RCBS recoil calculator I am using.
Recoil:
KE = 74.8 ftlbs
Vel. = 21.3 fps

In the same 10.6 pound Merkel, let YOUR shoulder be the judge.

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
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https://home.nra.org/

How did you measure the pressure?

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
In my 10.6 pound Merkel, I prefer the more accurate and lower peak pressure load: H4831SC
I cannot really appreciate the small recoil difference.
Plus, the H4831SC load is just at convergence at 50 meters, dead-on, while the RL-15 load to equal the velocity is well past convergence, crossed at 50 meters ...

How did you measure the pressure?

I did not measure pressure, but it is basic physics, and discussed in many sources dealing with handloading for DRs.
Common knowledge, no citation required.

For same MV:

Faster powder with filler will give a higher peak chamber pressure, while bullet is closer to chamber.
Slower powder will give a lower peak chamber pressure and it will occur when bullet is farther along the barrel.

Faster powder will give a lower muzzle pressure at bullet exit. Easier on thin-walled, solder-jointed, antique DR barrels with weaker "Pre-War" steels.
Slower powders will give a higher muzzle pressure, still quite low compared to peak chamber pressure, but that is no problem with the thicker-walled muzzles and modern steel of a Merkel.
Internal ballistics program is available in QuickLOAD, IIRC, pressure curves vs time and distance along the barrel, though I never paid much attention to it.

If I had an antique DR, Ye Olde English Bespoke DR, I too would use the faster powder and filler.

Maybe the slightly lesser recoil would help preserve antique walnut also.

The slightly greater recoil of the slow powder load is probably what keeps my load only just converged at 50 meters, from barrel time and muzzle rise.
The same muzzle velocity with the faster powder, lighter-recoiling load causes my rifle to cross at 50 meters. Yep that must be it.

Brass will last longer with the slow-powder loads.


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quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, speaking of recoil, how's the 577 build coming?

BTW, it is a beauty

My best load in the 470NE was 106gr of H4831sc with a 500gr flat point brass bullet ( no filler)I made. 2150fps. Very similar to the 500 gr Bridger brass solid. It Shot through an ELE shoulder to shoulder with the bullet just sticking through the hide on the off side! Slight deformation! Typical 50 yard groups were 1.5 inches with no crossing in a Searcy double.-Rob