I've been reading articles about how the 8 and 4 bore rifles usually took 2-3 rounds to kill them.im thinking did they have hardcast lead? or would using the semi or full wadcutter give them penetration they need.or how about something like barnes solid banded bullet? Im just thinking pistol bullets logics. Let's say the 577 is a 44 then why can't the 4 bore be the 500 s&w and have more penetration with heavy bullets for its caliber? I just thought the problems with the bores were poor designed/made bullets? So what do y'all think of a 2000-2300 gr swc 4 bore? Weren't the bore series usually loaded with a soft lead round nose or pumpkin ball? I also read that when hunters going from a 8 or 4 bore to the cordite loaded 577 instantly fell in love and.dropped the less penetrating and slower bore calibers.

I have been thinking the same thing..however this is my conclusion after have read many books regarding the 10 ,8 and 4bore hunters of the past.
The roundball was the most effective in all of these calibers. Some of the old hunters mentions that their bullets(roundballs) went straight through the skull of an elephant, where the conicals lacked penetration.
I have a a feeling that not all hunters followed the guidelines of the gunmakers, when making their own bullets in the field. Tin and mercury was part of the compounds to add in the lead to make it hard. I guess that sometimes they just used plain lead, because nothing else was available.
I have read where hunters in India hit a gaur 6 times with an 8bore, and yet it manage to escape.I am sure the haven`t hit the animal vital. Other reading describe how a .577 express ranking a buffalo and kills it. Things does not make sense, except for the fact that the animals wasn`t hit right, and the leadbullets wasn`t hard enough. Hope this helps

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quote:

So what do y'all think of a 2000-2300 gr swc 4 bore?

You mean like this one?



This went between the ribs of a bull elephant and was under the hide on the far side, about 3-4 feet, despite the handgun like muzzle velocity of 1125fps (probably a little over 1000 at impact). It was cast from Lyman#2 and dropped into water and is VERY hard (haven't measured it). Considering the low velocity I basically copied a handgun bullet. This one had a .800" meplat and weighed 1965 grains before firing.

From what I've read the tin/mercury hardening must not have been as good, as I've read complaints of bullets flatening in old books. I think that might be one reason the roundball was so successful; it's tough!

The pictures below are some 8 bore bullets I picked up at the range after testing some loads a few weeks ago. What a world of difference the alloy makes! The one on the left is pure lead, the one on the right hardcast, both fired over the same charge at a little over 1300 fps. This is from impacting the dirt/gravel berm, so I'd trust the hardcast one to not break up on anything.



Bob

That fired hardcast 4 bore slug looks like my 44 mag 255 gr swc after firing. I guess hardcast swc are predictable. So I guess in the 8 bore a 3 oz slug @ 1300 fps is is all you need for penetratin. 3 oz (1311 gr). I also sent out some emails about 10 bore rifle barrels with a diamter of. .774 so I can use nei 900 gr load which is close to
2 1/4 oz (983gr) . I figured the 774 is perfect considerin 10 bores are. 770-777 diameter I could use rmc.brass and data for 2 1/4 oz loads.

I know of one Water Buffalo that was wounded and having a go at one of the hunters and was pole axed by a guy standing to it's side with an 8 or 4 bore.

Not sure on penetration but I was told the animal went down like a bag of .......... sideways.


I find it hard to believe a Gaur can take 8 shots and get away unless they were all way off the mark. I've seen a Water Buffalo hit with 375, 470 x a couple and a couple from my 505, none hit the vitals but it was very sick and had to stop trying to run.

Just my HO.

.

Would would the 12% antimony lead do in either round ball or slug? I plan on getting a nei mould and some rmc brass and loading kit. Gonna try some 3.5" loaded with that 900 gr slug in my single shot 10 ga. Going to have to buy a cylinder choke though

I just picked up an underlever hammer 8ga Webley, so I'm all ears for this stuff!

I have an old English book dated about 17 or 1800 on hunting africa. It was given to me by Phillip Prices (Swartkei Safaris) father, and the guy in the book uses 4 bore doubles, and its a mess from the beginning to the end and Rhino and Hippo taking as many as 15 shots, and elephant traveling upwards to 30 kilometers..I don't think I would be inclined to shoot big dangerous animals with one, but some folks shoot them with bows, so what ever blows your skirt up..It's all fun and games today. BTW that is one heck of a book. The guy slept on a grass mat, and live in a hutch in villages for 3 years at a time..but had his bloody tea every day at noon!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
BTW that is one heck of a book. The guy slept on a grass mat, and live in a hutch in villages for 3 years at a time..but had his bloody tea every day at noon!

Atkinson, it's called Standards my boy, standards. They must be maintained even in the hardest of times. Carry on.

.

500 N,
So I violated my standards and oath when I gave up Cigerettes and beer? is that what your saying..

Bloody damn bad deal on my part old chap!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
500 N,
So I violated my standards and oath when I gave up Cigerettes and beer? is that what your saying..

Bloody damn bad deal on my part old chap!

Wasn't it Pimms and Lemonade or Gin and Tonic the drink in hot weather ?

.

quote:

I just picked up an underlever hammer 8ga Webley, so I'm all ears for this stuff!

Biebs, please do post the details and some pictures! The DGJ from the Fall 01 and Winter 03 issues have good 8-bore articles.

Bob

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
BTW that is one heck of a book. The guy slept on a grass mat, and live in a hutch in villages for 3 years at a time..but had his bloody tea every day at noon!



Atkinson, it's called Standards my boy, standards. They must be maintained even in the hardest of times. Carry on.

.

500N, many years ago I had the pleasure of attending India's excellent commando school. EVERY day at 0900 and 1600 we stopped whatever we were doing for tea. It didn't matter where we were or what was going on. On practice partols at about 845 someone would sprint ahead thru the jungle to set up a portable wood stove and get water boiling, and then we'd arrive and stand around for 15 minutes like proper gentlemen with pinkines extended, after which we resumed our station as the scum of the earth! I remember many times watching with amusement as someone clambered up a mountain side bearing a cup of tea for an officer that couldn't possible have contained two ounces given the steepness, but not for a lack of dedication. Some people indeed know better how to maintain standards and dignity in difficult situations, and they truely do have my admiration for it!

Bob

From what I've read the bores were good for vital shots lung,heart etc. But hunters wanted something that would work on skulls so they came up with the Nitro express? What I read amyhow

I guess you could call the. 8 bore a .88 Magnum Rifle

I suppose if one were to make bullets like Michael458 BBW#13 the problems of penetration would be solved. A 900gr .620 diameter bullet went over 40 inches at 1500fps.

Just thinking.................

Stories pertaining to bore rifles in which elephants or cape buffalo or gaur escape after multiple hits represent nothing more than tales about people who either cannot shoot or who do not care about lost animals due to the absence of trophy fees in their historical era. These stories are NOT a commentary on the effectiveness of bore rifles in general.

quote:

I guess you could call the. 8 bore a .88 Magnum Rifle Wink

In this case, it's .843 :-)

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Stories pertaining to bore rifles in which elephants or cape buffalo or gaur escape after multiple hits represent nothing more than tales about people who either cannot shoot or who do not care about lost animals due to the absence of trophy fees in their historical era. These stories are NOT a commentary on the effectiveness of bore rifles in general.

+ 1

Even a soft lead projjies out of them would do some serious damage
from a side on shot. Not every bullet has to hit bone.

I just look at a mate in the NT Aust who shoots some Buffalo with a 450 and 500 BPE
lead and the effect it has. Now triple the effect for an 8 bore or 4 bore.

.

Didn't the slug posted above say. .875" ? Or.you going.by shotshell brass is there a difference? Any who you could round it off to 88 we do it with other calibers. 44 is 43 caliber. 577 is .585 caliber

Also where can I find load data for 10 bore rifle. Would like to find some 3.5" shell with either a 900 gr 1080 gr and or a round ball 650 gr. Also could I shoot those im my 10 ga shotgun or would the bullet.go past the.chamber into the forcing cone.causing a pressure spike. Though its just a h&r 10 ga ed hubel said the barrel is pretty sturdy ..might have it cut to 19" then have a rifle choke about 7"or more permanently fitted

I have read some Old African hunting books, where they used Bore Rifles, and then the transition to the 450 3 1/4" Nitro Express.

Many stated that the 450 Nitro looked "puny" compared to the Bore Cartridges...

Till they shot some big stuff, especially elephants with it...

Then they realized what a DEATH RAY, IT WAS...

I have shot a lot of game with its ballistic equivalent, the 450 No2. I can say it does hit like the Thermonuclear Hammer of Thor...

The 450 Nitro has been around for about a Hundred years or so, nothing kills any better, IMHO of course.

480gr bullet at @2100 to 2150fps... Plenty of penetration, fairly low recoil...

What could be better???

Well maybe a Phase Plasma rifle in the 40 Watt range.... As long as your batteries are charged...

quote:

480gr bullet at @2100 to 2150fps... Plenty of penetration, fairly low recoil...

and a helluva lot less weight to lug around!

TK10ga, I don't know that this will help you project much as my gun is a short 2 5/8" case, 5 dram 700gn roundball gun, but I looked up some of my load development data.

-120gn Swiss FFFg in a Federal plastic case with roll crimp = 1300fps (factory spec too) and perfect regulation in my gun

-40gn Blue Dot in RMC brass = 1169fps

-45gn Blue Dot in RMC brass = 1331fps

-130gn Goex Cartridge in RMC brass = 1161fps

-138gn Goex FFFG in Federal plastic with roll crimp = 1285fps

Goex Cartridge topped out at 1300fps. I went up to 170 grains but it just all wouldn't burn and velocity didn't increase significantly above 145. I even tried duplex loads and heftier charges than those listed here (up to 1450fps) but they all crossed so severly I didn't bother to chrono.

All of these loads used a 1/8" card over the powder, a 1/2" lubed felt wad, then fiber wads to take up any remaining space. I experimented endlessly with various plasitc wads and combos, but the only real tip I gleened is that at least one lubed felt wad is essential over the card. My gun has laminated steel barrels with 7 groove metford rifling (looks like a wavy sine curve). Though in great shape and pit free, the grooves are NOT all quite the same depth!!!! I fretted about this a bunch and how to get a complete bullet seal without making the projectile grossly oversize. Additionally, they have about 3 thousandths of choke in the final few inches.

The lubed felt compresses and makes this a non-issue. It can even let you go a bit undersize and not worry about blowby and leading. When I pick the wads up down range they look pristine and the edges still bear some lube. To experiment, when I use a dry wad instead the edges are burned and chared from gas getting around the card. The same occurs in my 4 and 8s. To lube them I nuke wonderlube (the yellow minty smelling stuff) in a shallow plastic or styrofoam meat tray and then roll the wad on edge in the resulting liquid, letting them dry on wax paper or foil.

Please keep us posted on what you come up with. Hopefully some others will share some of their info too.

Bob

I shoot a 10 gauge/bore single shot often. It is all kinds of fun at the range once you get used to it. I am using a 3 1/2 inch RMC case with hollow base 900 and 1100 grain slugs. I have load data for up to 1800fps. It is a hammer on swinging plates

I just feel that if your gonna stay under. .585" cal you might as well use a bolt action. To me sxs and bigbore (585-4b) are like synonyms lol. And I can carry a heavy gun its all about the sling. I carried a 223 rifle with a narrow nylon sling once it felt like it weighed 20 lbs. Now my 10 ga bps 11 lbs has a thick wide cushioned sling and it very comfortable. I wish I could fine a 10 bore rifle barrel source so I could monoblock it to my h&r shotgun.

Anonymous you have any data fir that 900 gr slug at 1500 fps? With smokeless or/bp?

I will pm you with info

quote:

Originally posted by tk10ga:
Anonymous you have any data fir that 900 gr slug at 1500 fps? With smokeless or/bp?

I can help you with ballistic..

60 grain of BlueDot in a RMC case of 3.25" + feltwads Voila..

I get the impression in my old book circa 1800s that velocity was about 1000 FPS with his 8 bores and his 4 bores, I also got the impression that he got the same velocity on the other end..

He recounts several incidents of being up in a tree after shooting a Rhino twice, and the Rhino would walk around the tree and then go lay down, and he would climb down and the Rhino would chase him back up the tree but on the second time he got his gun and started shooting the Rhino from up in the tree..He shot the Rhino many times, and spent the night in the tree. He continually throughout the book had problems with penetration. I suspect the black powder of the day and in Africa was probably pretty much homemade stuff, but that is what they had and used, so to be correct one must use such stuff in order to duplicate their feats..Probably should also have a dose of malaria, black water fever and many other malidies as this gentleman had..Those guys were tough.

The book is THE LARGE GAME, by The hon.W.H. Drummond 1845-1879, second son of Henery 9th Viscount Strathallan. Who went to Africa in his early 20s ands was killed in Zululand in July of 1879
Publisher is The Pioneer Head, a division of Kingstons Limited of Rhodesia.

The book is actually written in a form of English that is very hard to read,and was priced at R$15,00. A fantastic old, old book given to me by an old elephant hunter and perhaps an elephant poacher who purchased thousands of acres of land with money from hunting Ivory and bringing it home to RSA in mile long groups of ox carts. Those pictures are amazing..His sons and grandsons Phillip and Charles Price operate Swartkei Safaris in RSA having followed in the hunting traditons. What a library they have in the main ranch of some 200,000 acres.

Sounds like the ponderosa lol

I didn't think rmc made a 3.25" 10 bore case

speaking of penetration..My 10bore has shot clean through 19" beechwood. I am sure it will penetrate the skull of an elephant.
10 drams swiss + 900grain ball is
miked to 1735Ft/sec.