I am looking at building a 460 weatherby mag or a 500a2 on a cz550. I have heard that the jp recoil elimator is the best muzzel brake. Other people like the holland qd brake.Thoughts on which brake is best please.
Regards.
hjl

Hjl, I dont know about muzzle brakes but you better get a great pair of ear protectors with shutoffs for sound and blast..

Mike

I am considering a brake from bp-tec.com. They claim to not increase the noise.

This is an interesting question in that I don't think any real comparisons have ever been made...viz. actually taking measurements. Of course, its somewhat impractical unless a big bucks
gun magazine pursued a good testing instead of the usual tripe they write about. So, the answers you get have to be mostly subjective, as there probably aren't many who have had experience with trying different brakes. Essentially, then how would you know? It becomes a matter of opinion from people who haven't tried many different ones.
Anyway, I would like to see this question answered by some testing..would be useful to us before shelling out our money for a brake we don't really know about.
Best Regards,
Tom

hjl,

Check out the Vais muzzle break. The Vais break vents gas 'against itself' as it leaves the barrel. The gas is exiting in two directions which are at 90 degree angles. This in effect cancells some of the increased noise out. The overal theory is that the recoil is greatly reduced with a minimum increase in the noise level.

I can't speak to the effectiveness of any break as I don't have them on my rifles but, from talking to fellow shooters at my gun club they generally feel the Vais is the best option for both recoil reduction with a minimum of increased noise.

People who have them like them in my experience......

Vais muzzle breaks

Regards,
Dave

I finalised the design of a muzzle brake about ten years ago and comparative testing is a relatively simple excercise, I think. I built a sled to which the rifle was attached and marked the rail of the sled with a steel tape. I borrowed a decibel meter from the local traffic department and set it up on a tripod more or less where the shooter's head would be. Using three different calibers (243, 300 Win Mag and 375H&H) and a variety of brakes including the ones I had made experimentally, it was a simple matter of recording how far each brake pushed the sled back and writing down the Db level of each shot fired. The only variable within calibers was the weight of the brake and the adaptor I had to use to fit some of them. All did not have the same thread. This was my final design and I still use them today.

So, Gerard, what were the results. Do brakes in fact reduce recoil? Noise?
Peter.

Peter,
All brakes reduced recoil substantially and all brakes were louder than the rifle normally. I had seven different makes and it was some ten years ago, so I cannot recall great detail. In fact, looking back it was more like thirteen years ago. The loudest brake was one fitted to a BSA 243. It was a factory fitting if I recall correctly. The quietest brake was only a small bit louder than the unbraked rifle, it was made by Gentry. In recoil reduction there was little to choose as most varied between high 30% to low 50%.

One of my experimental brakes was by far the best in recoil reduction but impossible to live with. I would trip the trigger while standing to the left of the rifle sled and about level with the action. The first shot with that particular brake removed my cap, earmuffs and glasses and left me with a ringing left ear and wondering what the hell happened.

For my own final design I just about equalled the sound level of the Gentry and equalled the recoil reduction of the Weatherby brake. I am not sure that the Weatherby brake was made by them, it was fitted to a Weatherby rifle and the owner said it was a Weatherby brake.

Looking at rifles I fitted with brakes over the last 15 years, there is one fact that stands out. These rifles suffered less breakdowns, as a group, than the unbraked rifles I worked on. Whether it was due to the fact that braked rifles generally belonged to more knowledgable owners I do not know. My perception also was that braked rifles were used more than unbraked rifles.

Gerard, let me clarify my question and you can reiterate your answer if you wish. I think of brakes as reducing muzzle rise, or at least returning the muzzle close to point of aim quickly. At least that is what the brake on my 38 super does. I am still at a loss as to how a brake would reduce recoil at the shoulder. Do you still sell your brakes? There was a new company a couple of years ago that showed videos on thier website of larger caliber rifles fitted with their brakes. I cannot remember the company or URL but they claimed to be able to tune the brake so that it had negative rise ie. the muzzle actually went down (not sure if this was on a large caliber rifle). Some of the IPSC shooters experimented with very light bullets at high velocity which they claimed did the same thing. With a large caliber this might be difficult as I thought the effectiveness of a brake increased with velocity.
Peter.

See the

bp-tec.com web site as noted above.

This is the one that claims actual noise REDUCTION
[a very small amount as legal] and they tune the brake for a specific cartridge to cancel muzzle rise or induce drop if desired - as in a big bore stopping rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidC:
hjl,

Check out the Vais muzzle break. The Vais break vents gas 'against itself' as it leaves the barrel. The gas is exiting in two directions which are at 90 degree angles. This in effect cancells some of the increased noise out. The overal theory is that the recoil is greatly reduced with a minimum increase in the noise level.

I can't speak to the effectiveness of any break as I don't have them on my rifles but, from talking to fellow shooters at my gun club they generally feel the Vais is the best option for both recoil reduction with a minimum of increased noise.

People who have them like them in my experience......

Vais muzzle breaks

Regards,
Dave

I have a Vais on a CZ 416 Rigby. It does NOT have as bad a muzzle blast as some others, and reduces the recoil of the 400-grain factory load down to about the .375 H&H level.

Though I'm not a big bore person I noticed this thread... Shortly I'll be ordering a 340 Weatherby Accumark and I will be having it fitted with the BP-TEC muzzle brake... Their not the first to use a similar design but they have done some real engineering on it for maximum recoil reduction as well as controlling muzzle flip... The noise of the blast goes the same place as the blast is released... In their case it goes up a slightly forward so I suggest you don't hang in a tree while someone lights one up below you ...

Ken....

I have Vais brakes on two rifles - a 7 3/4 pound .375 Lazzeroni Hellcat and a 7 1/2 lb .300 Mag. Lazzeroni Patriot. Both are easy to shoot with full power loads although the Hellcat can be a handfull when running a 300gr bullet at 2600 fps.

My Patriot duplicates 300 Weatherby ballistics and it's quieter with the brake ON than any Weatherby I've ever heard that doesn't have a brake. You still need hearing protection at the range but then I always wear something when shooting.

LHowell, thanks very much. Bp-tec and VA Comp is the site I was referring to Interestingly, despite their claim about large bore rifles, no one on this forum has reported buying one. Maybe I'll put one on my 416 Rigby!
Peter.

IN MY OPINION PEOPLE WHO REQUIRE A MUZZLE BRAKE SHOULD CONFINE THEMSELVES TO A RIFLE THEY CAN HANDLE - LIKE A 22 RF.

Howdy hjl - I've had the opportunity to use both the JP Recoil Eliminator and the Holland Quick Discharge brakes you ask about. My experience with brakes/comps on rifles include the Vais on a .338 Win Mag, the old Winchester-Browning "BOSS" system also on a .338, A JP Eliminator on a .308 (competition gun), and a Holland QD on .375 H&H.

The JP Recoil eliminator is probably the largest in size of any of the currently available brakes I've seen. So far as reducing felt recoil, I'd rate it as the best brake I've used. Not sure I'd want it on a hunting arm due to it's size, (this is purely personal preference stuff...you might like it just fine) but for rapid fire competition shooting it's hard to beat.

For hunting purposes, my favorite is the Holland Quick Discharge. It doesn't add much to barrel length (perhaps 1 1/2"?), reduces recoil very well, and when fired from the prone position, doesn't kick up dust when fired like most other brakes. It discharges out the top and sides but not the bottom. This out-the-top but not the bottom discharge also reduces muzzle rise.

Hope that helps.

Peter,
A rifle brake reduces felt recoil by venting a large volume of the gas that follows the bullet out the muzzle sideways. Any amount of gas that does not vent directly forwards reduces the recoil effect the gas would have caused. With pistol brakes (we call them compensators here) gas is vented upwards. This adds downforce to the muzzle for faster follow up shots or double taps, as you know. The nice thing about rifle brakes is that one can see through the scope where the bullet strikes on the animal. You know instantly if the shot was good or bad. No guessing. On a recent meat harvest hunt I used my 22x64 and a Weaver 15 power scope. Shots were taken from 80m to over 300m and every time I knew exactly where the hit was.

I still have a small number of rifle brakes left in most calibers but when they are gone I don't think I will be making more. $72.50 airmail included anywhere in the world.

Tomo577,
It is not about who can endure the most discomfort, it is about better shot placement and cleaner kills. It is about being professional rather than macho man.

Have to side with Girard here on design parameters...and the comfort level. I have mentioned that I am doing the load testing on a friend's 505 Gibb. While I consider it a privilege, it is going at the rate of 4-6 shots each day...I am using 650gr cast bullets and turning a gascheck shank on the base using the lathe. Once I got over the 2000fps level the recoil becomes significant. 89ft lbs/22ft second recoil impules speed, 6300ft lbs of ME. I expect I could run 20 rounds most days with a Vais or equivalent muzzle brake on it. You would not need one for hunting, but benchwork...my, my, my. It ain't about being manly, it's about enjoying big bores and not needing rotator cuff surgery...ask me, I know.

Rich

Gerard is correct, along with Idaho Sharpshooter...if I want to be punished...instead of being on the butt end of an opposite & equal reaction (the shooter)...I'll just pick an argument with my wife...and then gets lots of it!
Best Regards,
Tom

Sad part is if not for our Federal laws, you should be able to actually reduce noise, as well as recoil.

GS

Gerard PM sent.
Peter.

Capt. Jack,
How do you rate the JP on muzzle blast / noise compared to the Holland? Did group size change after fitting either?

Gerard - The JP is seriously loud. However, the gun it was on was strictly for competition and I wore ear protection at all times, so for me it was a non-issue. It came with the JP already installed, so don't know if groups or point of impact changed...it was a very accurate rifle.

The group size didn't change on the Winchester when I installed the Holland but the point of impact moved about an inch lower at 100 yds, if I remember correctly. That rifle shot groups of about 1 1/4" both before and after installing the brake. I was hoping the brake might change the barrel harmonics a bit for the better but it didn't seem to.

So far as noise, I probably can't offer an objective comparrison - As I mentioned, I only shot the JP with hearing protection. When I shoot with the Holland at an elk, I hear the shot but I'm about 98% focused on sight picture and the hit at that moment. I guess my very unscientific impression would be that the JP might be a bit louder.

By the way, very nice looking machine work on those brakes of yours. What's your experience with group sizes changing when you install a brake?

Capt. Jack,
Looking at the way the brakes are designed, I would have thought that the JP would be loud. I guess my choice between the two would be the Holland brake for general use and to do some testing with both to see if the JP reduces recoil so much more, that it warrants the extra noise for competition work.

Accuracy and grouping should not become worse if the brake is installed correctly. It is a given that the group center will shift with and without a brake. The only changes I have seen in grouping was an improvement and it is debatable whether it was due to the brake or the recrown that I do as part of the fitting. The thing to avoid is non concentricity. The thread must be cut between centers on a lathe. If the machinist is too heavy handed with the live center in the bore, when the crown is redone, nothing is lost. Often the bore is not concentric with the outer profile of the barrel and the brake appears to be fitted off centre but that is nothing to do with the brake. The rifle will walk the shots anyway.

I settled on a brake design that vents gas 360 degrees around the brake and avoided the dust problem, while shooting prone, by careful design of the first set of vents. This also reduces the noise level to close to normal. I tried brakes with non concentric venting and only found them to be more difficult to fit. They must be aligned properly to be vertical and this simple fact made many machinists (and gunsmiths) reluctant to fit them. Cost also increases as they take more time to fit.

I put a Vias on my 8mm Rem Mag No.1. Between the Decelerator and the Vias it is a very pleasant rifle to shoot. Also the Vias is a good looking unit which does not mar the looks of the rifle. I have not shot this rifle without the brake installed.

I just put a Holland QD and a Limbsaver on a Rem.700 in .338RUM. I did not shoot this gun without the QD, however with it, this rifle was down right polite of the bench.

I run a JP Eliminator on my 3 gun Rifle, and it is very effective and well balanced. This is a very flat shooting 16" AR15, it has no muzzle climb but it does not push down either. It just floats in my off hand. It does have the slightest pull forward off your shoulder but I have to hold it really lightly to notice.

I think on the small caliber side of things the JP and the Holland will be fairly equal in performance. However, once you put a .45 or .50 caliber hole through the QD it will have a serious surface area disadvantage to the JP. Also the Vias does not readily compare to these two, as the Vias is a strait up muzzle brake, but the QD and the JP are compensators aswell because the fight muzzle climb aswell the felt recoil.

Bottom line is all three have worked well in my experiance. The Vias is the best looking. The JP is the most effective. Then Holland is a good compromise of looks and preformance.