Does any one here have field experience with the swift A frame .410 400 grain bullet at 450/400 velocities?
I'm trying to decide between them and the old stand by woodlieghs.

Here is some incidental information.

I have been working up loads and shooting the 350gr .411 Swift A-Frame. I have no doubt at all that they will perform well on game. However, I have not been able to get them to the same velocities as "conventional" 350gr .411 bullets. Perhaps the partition (for lack of a better term) offers more resistance and the pressures rise faster. But that is just speculation. What I do know is that I could only get a top velocity of 2024 fps with them while with the same powder I was able to get other 350gr bullets as fast as 2159 fps. This is in my .405 wildcat.

Again, this is just additional/incidental to the information you specifically requested. But I hope it provides additional insight.

I'll be interested in this too.
In the late '80s and early '90s the Swift A-Frame .375/300-grain always went to Kodiak in my .375 Weatherby.
Born about 1984 they were the hottest new hunting bullet for me back then.
They are still going strong, time for me to try them again.
Like a Nosler Partition on steroids, plenty accurate.
The only complaint I recall ever hearing from anyone was that their copper jackets might foul more than gilding metal.
Soft, ductile TOUGH copper is strong,
might have a higher coefficient of friction in the bore, might not allow top velocity for pressure, as Grenadier is noting.
Certainly not a problem for easily getting 2200 fps with 400-grainer in a 450/400 NE.

I never heard anyone say they did not expand reliably and retain weight with the best.
Exit holes on Kodiak deer were huge!
They would nearly cut a blacktail buck in two.

This Swift web site photo is a good representation of game-getting reality, IMHO:



I am more interested in the .410/350-grainer, got a couple of boxes for the .410/404 JRNE,
ought to be similar to the dearly beloved .375/300gr SAF.
But a .410/400-grainer will always be needed for duplicating the 400 S Jeffery classic load.

.410/350 SAF:



.410/400 SAF:



PS:
I did not know Swift made a .411-caliber, thought they were all .410-caliber.
Woodleigh makes both, if it matters.
Sure a .410-bullet in a .411-groove barrel is going to lose some pressure/velocity
compared to a bullet diameter matching the groove diameter.
But that tough partition and full-bearing copper jacket might still be a factor as suggested above.


PPS:
Get a load of the .410/400-grain "Break-Away Solid" from Swift:



Jacket is alloy not pure copper, and has a lead core,
and a polymer nipple,
to make it feed well,
breast feeding is always best!



"Break-Away® Solids will be available in 9 different calibers, from 9.3mm through 500 cal. For the past two years it has been in development and has hunted dangerous African game, including numerous elephant and buffalo, with outstanding results. It has been extensively field tested, with many hunters and PH’s throughout Africa.
The polymer tip provides flawless magazine feeding and Breaks-Away upon impact. The cavitated front end provides a perfectly straight wound channel. The proprietary metal, a rebated ogive, a short driving band, and a lead core, all make the Break-Away Solid very gentle on barrels. This is the most well tested, thought out solid ever developed."

https://www.swiftbullets.com/pages/bullets

Rip
.

quote:

I have not been able to get them to the same velocities as "conventional" 350gr .411 bullets. Perhaps the partition (for lack of a better term) offers more resistance and the pressures rise faster

I experienced the same thing when working up loads with the 225 Gr. A frame in my .338 Win Mag. I settled on Nosler Partitions in the same weight. The Nosler's shoot great with no signs of pressure with a book max load of H-4831. I experienced high pressure signs with a lower dose of this powder with the A frames

Grenadier and Labman, the metallurgical makeup of the A-Frames jackets are a bit sticky for lack of a better term, the Partitions etc, have harder slicker gilded metal.

els, I just bought a couple boxes of these for a 400 H&H build I have in mind, now I only need to find someone with the time to build it.

I had very good performance with 370 gr Cutting Edge Bullet in my 450/400 N.E. Flattened a cape buff at about 45 yards.

quote:

PPS:
Get a load of the .410/400-grain "Break-Away Solid" from Swift:



Jacket is alloy not pure copper, and has a lead core,
and a polymer nipple,
to make it feed well,
breast feeding is always best!



"Break-Away® Solids will be available in 9 different calibers, from 9.3mm through 500 cal. For the past two years it has been in development and has hunted dangerous African game, including numerous elephant and buffalo, with outstanding results. It has been extensively field tested, with many hunters and PH’s throughout Africa.
The polymer tip provides flawless magazine feeding and Breaks-Away upon impact. The cavitated front end provides a perfectly straight wound channel. The proprietary metal, a rebated ogive, a short driving band, and a lead core, all make the Break-Away Solid very gentle on barrels. This is the most well tested, thought out solid ever developed."

https://www.swiftbullets.com/pages/bullets

Rip
.

That is a great looking bullet Rip.

To be picky - gilding metal is copper and as much as 10 % zinc and they might have other elements as well.
" lead core"? There too are we talking about pure lead or lead with other stuff added ? My old Speer JSWCHP in 44 mag had a rather hard core ,lead with the maximum amount of another element .
Good engineering is the engineering of a system not jut parts of it.
Swift A Frame ? Yes they do work !!

Remember from the last century when Remington .375 H&H "Premier" (or whatever they called their premium ammo) was loaded with the SAF?

The Swift A-Frame .375/300gr bullet was loaded to give right on 2530 fps in my 24"-barreled rifles, classic .375 H&H ballistics,
from Remington factory ammo.

I chronographed it, and it was true.
But pierced primers, sticky bolt lift and smeared brass on the bolt face were noted also.

I heard there was a recall on that ammo.

Eventually I tried the later version of it.
Velocity was about 2450 fps next time around.

Maybe there is something about those Swift A-Frames that makes them give higher pressure or lower velocity.
Your choice.

Maybe there is an internal ballistic price (pressure/velocity) to be paid for the outstanding terminal ballistic performance
of the Swift A-Frame.
Yep, many have noted that, including Remington.
Even Remington figured that one out.

Swift likes to plaster "Terminal Performance" all over their ads. They got that right!

I'm still thinking the SAF will be perfect for a .410/404 JRNE bolt-action rifle,
to duplicate ballistics of the 400 S Jeffery, aka 450/400 NE 3".
Perfect for the geriatric DGR.

Rip
.

Perhaps a little history, Swift never made a
.410/.411 bullet until Craig Boddington requested some. Swift produced the 400 grain
items by swagging down the .416 bullets but
the crimping grove was not necessarily in the
correct location. When Craig would order bullets, Swift would make a special swagging run. Now they make the proper diameters. I have shot these for years
in my 450/400 NE 3 in K-Gun with good results. I also like the North Forks and Woodleighs for different purposes. With respect to the 450/400 velocity, I needed to tweak my loads a bit for the results on target to print to regulation, sometimes with 4831 or
RL-15, Velocity didn't matter much as it was
always between 2025 and 2150 as long as the
paper print to regulation was good. I also have a Ruger No 1 in 450/400 and the action is
strong enough to get 2200 easy with no pressure or regulation printing problems. I shoot the 410 Swift now in competition at 2025 fps and it is
very accurate in my double gun. Also the hogs
don't know the difference.

Good Shooting,

Tetonka
DRSS

I am curious as to whether the Swifts would be recommended for older pre-war doubles or would they be too hard on the bores?

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
I am curious as to whether the Swifts would be recommended for older pre-war doubles or would they be too hard on the bores?

Not sure why they would be hard on the bore? They are a soft copper alloy.
If they were machined brass solids I could see there being some concern.

I used the .411" Swift A-Frames to take two buffalo. The gun was a custom Ruger No. 1 with a .411" Krieger barrel. Muzzle velocity was a chronographed 2275 fps. Bullets shot into the chest cavity of a bull at 110 yards and 40 yards expanded to .65" & .77" and retained 95% of their original weight. The second buffalo was shot in the shoulder at 35 yards. This bullet expanded to .78" and retained 85& of its weight.

In comparison, I shot a small impala with a 400-grain Woodleigh Weldcore. The range was 50 yards and the bullet penetrated the entire length of the body. It expanded to a whopping 1" diameter and retained 95% of its weight.

I also used the 400-grain Swift bullets on plains game with complete success. I am satisfied with their performance and would prefer them to Woodleighs for buffalo.

Lee440,
Swift bullets are cup and core partition bullets, not monolithics and they are butter soft. Fine for old doubles if the bores are correct. Iv used them on buffalo in .410 and .411 and would use either size in either size bore and chose my bullet based on accuracy...

Swifts typically expand like neat little mushrooms, and ball up very smooth with a swell in the rear or base of the mushroom..IMO they are a bit too smooth and internal damage is lessened to some degree..whereas the woodliegh expands with sawblade type cutting blades and does more damage IMO..Penetration is about equal in "reality" however the expansion of the Swift "should", by design and its expansion properties penetrate deeper, but its a no issue as far as I can tell...both penetrate enough.

I wouldn't hesitate to to use either Swifts or Woodleighs on buffalo in a 450-400 as well as the GS Custom and North Forks..I,m really sold on the NF cup point on anything in most any caliber down to the 338 or 9.3s anyway.

So, Swift A-Frames (SAFs) may not be the swiftest bullets you'll find, for whatever caliber,
but they will be a SAFest choice for bringing home the bacon, including getting your own bacon home alive.

Full page ad in the July/August 2017 SPORTS AFIELD, p.17: "Swift Introduces HIGH GRADE (TM) hunting ammunition."
Says they have been at it for 31 years now, that would make it since 1986.
I thought the A-Frames had been around since 1984 ...
IIRC the company did start off in Quinter, Kansas making small-bore ammo from 22 RF spent cases, etc. ...

The SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER ONE of 2002 listed neither .411 nor .410,
went straight from .375 to .416-caliber,
though as said above they were supplying the likes of Craig Boddington with sized-down .416s.
For a time they offered .411s and .410s, but a few years back they switched over to .410s as their standard offering.

The SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO of 2014 shows the new .410-caliber/350-grain SAF listed with 405 Winchester loads.
Not quite cricket, but it will work.
That manual does not even show the .410/400gr SAF, which is also now available at their web site.

I bought that NUMBER TWO manual at the SWIFT booth at an NRA convention, 2015 IIRC,
and the guy that sold it to me was the "ballistician" for Swift.
He said he was the sole source for all the data in the book, shot all the loads himself.
He has not quite gotten around to all their bullets, apparently ... busier than a one-armed paper hanger.

Hopefully the .410/400-grainer will show up in Swift manual NUMBER THREE, loaded for the 450/400 NE 3".

Rip
.

thank you for all the good replies. My two concerns are that the swifts will not open up properly at 400 whelen velocities and that they may use up too much case capacity in the Whelen case.

It seems the consensus is that they will open up well enough. the question about running up pressures remains to be tested.

Thanks again.

I have used Swift A-Frames in my bolt guns on African game and have been very pleased with their performance. It seems that I remember reading here years ago, that some partition type bullets may be hard on the older softer steel barrels because the partition wall itself is not very compressible, hence my question. The Swifts probably are no worse than the Woodleigh steel jacketed solids I used on Buff though.

I use Swift exclusively in my 416 Remington Magnum.. They always run slower than my Partitions did when I used those. I get 2,350 fps for the 400-grain, and still have a safe velocity. The 350s give me 2,475 fps. Small enough price to pay for perfect performance on the game. If I think I "need" the speed, I use my North Fork SS bullets.

Rip, did you go with the $400.00/year photobucket service?

Ive found that most all bullets today work in the 416 and 404..Swifts work fine no better no worse..its a game of preference, but one or two kills on buffalo or whatever, don't mean a thing, the long time track record is the true story.

Aside:

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Rip, did you go with the $400.00/year photobucket service?

Nope, I took the $60/year plan just to put them off my trail for a while.
I have not third-party-linked any new photos since they started their monkey business.
Any pictures I linked here, above, are already hosted by commercial sites/etc.
I am just going to download my stuff from Photopucker to a hard drive and be done with them within a year.
There is no understanding the ways of Photopucker.

Rip
.

Well, now, the pictures at Midway USA of the Swift bullets are different, and they might have them mixed up:

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?ta...sistedItemsPerPage=0

Swift A-Frame Bullets 400 Caliber (410 Diameter) 400 Grain Bonded Semi-Spitzer Box of 50:
$67.99, $1.36/Bullet, Available


Swift A-Frame Bullets 400 Caliber (410 Diameter) 350 Grain Bonded Semi-Spitzer Box of 50:
$67.99, $1.36/Bullet, Available


Larry, what's going on?

As you were.

Hornady Dangerous Game Bullets 400 Caliber (410 Diameter) 400 Grain DGX Flat Nose Expanding Box of 50:
Sale $48.49, $0.97/Bullet (Regular Price: $53.99) Save $5.50 (10%), Available


Hornady Dangerous Game Bullets 450-400 Nitro Express (410 Diameter) 400 Grain DGS Flat Nose Solid Box of 50:
Sale $47.49, $0.95/Bullet (Regular Price: $52.99) Save $5.50 (10%), Unavailable - Limited Production


Woodleigh Bullets 450-400 Nitro Express (410 Diameter) 400 Grain Bonded Weldcore Round Nose Soft Point Box of 50:
$62.99, $1.26/Bullet, Available


Woodleigh Bullets 450-400 Nitro Express (410 Diameter) 400 Grain Full Metal Jacket Box of 50:
$91.99, $1.84/Bullet. Out of Stock. Backorder OK. Date expected in stock: 03/15/2018


Woodleigh Hydrostatically Stabilized Solid Bullets 450-400 Nitro Express 3" (410 Diameter) 400 Grain Box of 10:
$37.99, $3.80/Bullet, Available


Rip
.

quote:

A frame .410 400 grain bullet at 450/400 velocities?

I used them in a 450/400 Ruger Number#1 last year on Buffalo. I hand-loaded them to 2160fps. They worked excellent and I would use them again.

Every bullet mentioned in this thread works well on Buffalo, its a no brainer, everybody won.

As far as Im concerned on buffalo is that the bullet doesn't come apart, if it fails to expand at all, Im not bothered in least as Ive shot too many buffalo with solids to get in a wad over that, but probably wouldn't use them again, but that has never happened..

The best buffalo bullet to cover all the bases is the North Fork Cup Point, its and expanding solid, how can you beat that? and it works real well.

Ive come to really like the 450 gr. softs in the 416, 404, etc, as well as the 350 gr. in the 375...Ive tested these on buffalo in 375 and 404,416 in the Woodlieghs, both in RN and PPs they sure do work well. RNs for herd hunting and PP for he dagga boys, or just just use the PP, they penetrated better, but be carefull in herd hunting.

So many good choices, Swift included!

GSC:
A .410"/325-grain soft, 410325HV170: #25 $53.00 http://www.gscustomusa.com/410325HV170.html
Exactly like this:

1:16" or faster twist recommended, my twist is 1:14".


And a .410"/380-grain FN Solid, 410380FN107: #50 $80.00 http://www.gscustomusa.com/410380FN107.html
Exactly like this:

Recommended is a 1:13" or faster twist
maybe 1:14" twist would work???
If the rifle shoots them accurately, surely that would be good in a 1:14" twist, need to try and see.

Cutting Edge:
https://cuttingedgebullets.com/
Cannot find .410-caliber bullets, just .408, .409, .411, and .416.
Maybe a custom order is necessary to get a .410-caliber bullet proper for a 1:14" twist.
I really don't think I could improve the Cutting Edge bullets by resizing them myself.
Not so with the Barnes and Speer .416-calibers.

North Fork:
http://www.northforkbullets.co.../bullets/?bweight=26
Four different types of .410/400-grainers:

Semi-Spitzer (SS)
Percussion Point (PP)
Flat Point Solid (FPS)
Cup Point Solid (CPS)







Here is what the North Fork Percussion Point bullet looks like in .375/300-gr PP (also available as .410/400gr PP):



What NF says about their PP:

"Percussion Point Designed for Large Cats!
June 23rd, 2012
North Fork created the Percussion Point (PP series) specifically for large felines. The bullet features an expansion initiating groove near the tip of the bullet that aides the bullet in opening quicker on thin skinned animals like leopards, lions etc… The groove is visible and can be felt allowing positive confirmation that you have the proper load for the proper game. The Percussion Points are designed to hit at the same point of impact as our standard soft points and solids allowing you to take one gun to really do it all."

Rip
.

North Forks are so bloody reliable they are boring, you just never have anything to write about..I love that cup point on whitetail deer, elk Cape Buffalo anything except elephant and Ive never tried it on elephant, but wouldn't be surprised if it worked. I tested a lot of bullets for North Fork and the original owner I Africa..They are superb bullets, as are the GS Customs bullets and Woodleighs...Swift and Nosler rate right up there with the best..

Sure are a lot of good choices out there these days..

Thank you for the replies.
I have decided on the Woodleighs 400 softs and solids. Off to Zim in Nov. with the 400 Whelen

I have just had such good results with them over the years and they tend to shoot very close to each other with minimal load work up.

While I was was loading and shooting I tried a little experiment. I have a bunch of 300 grain Hornady .412 bullets and Accurate 5744. I used Quick Load to calculate a load that would push those bullets to about 2150fps to match the 400's. 40 grains looked about right. So I shot a 6 shot group at 100 yrds. 3 of the 300's 2 solid 400's and 1 400 soft. the entire group was 2 1/4 inch with no shot more than 1 1/2 from the aim point. The 300's are of course very pleasant to shoot and will make a great practice round and should I decide to shoot a hog or deer this year they would work perfectly !

Something that should be put to rest is Ive shot all bullets avalilable in my 450-400s and none were so hard as to do some of the BS I read about like bulging the barrels, and being unsafe..Ive been shooting Searcys and British doubles for years in that caliber, even with the Barnes bullets and GS Customs monolithics with 0 problems. To each his own, but there is so much BS about shooting doubles its terrifying to the first timers..