Hi all,
I have posted this question on the african hunter forum but I have not been completely satisfied with the answers.. So I thought I would give it a try here then. Some of the question have been raised before here also, without any good responses.

I have been thinking about building myself a 450 Rigby based on a CZ 550 action. The "problem" is that I recently found a Husqvarna 1640 in 30-06 for free and I have thought about putting a new barrel on this one and work over the feeding. The 1640 is almost the same as an original Mauser 98 with a rebuild safe. The cartridges I have been looking at for this project are 450 Vincent Short, 450 G&A and the 450 Howell. The length for all of those should fit in the standard 98 action but is it a wise/possible sollution to widen the bolt face on a standard mauser action? All of the named cartridges are, at least to my knowledge, based on the 404 Jeffery cartridge.

If this is possible is it really a good sollution, will it hold together? Are any of the named cartridges a wiser sollution when considering their known problems. I was here thinking of the head spacing problem in the 450 Howell, which might have been corrected on the 450 Vincent short?? I really don't know any differences between them since there are no cartridge drawings available. Brass should not be a problem when considering that all of them are built on the 404 and it should be possible to form from that.

The reason that I got this thought is that all my other rifles are based on standard length mauser actions so I thought that it would be nice to have them all in the same length?

Also, the load data presented on this site for the 450 Vincent short seems pretty hot? I guess these are max loads and not suitable for African hunting? Anybody got a clue what this cartridge can do on 500 grains with moderate pressures? 2300?

Should I dump this idea and go the 450 Rigby way?
I will appreciate all input and comments!

Regards

/Johan G

Under what name did you post this in the African Forum.
This one only has one post.

As Johan Gronlund. Which, by the way, is my name..



Ahh, now I see what you mean..



That is the African hunter forum as in www.african-hunter.com



/Johan

Gotcha!
Groovy. Well, first off, welcome! Hopefully these guys will satisfy your question.
I myself am fond of the idea of a standard length 404 case on most any caliber Mauser rifle.
The most you'll see is probably ~103g of water in a 2.5" case, which might get you around 2200 fps with a 500g out of 24", running ~ 45k psi.
That's LOW pressure.
Since Vincent was getting right at 2400 fps with his 25" bbl, I'd say it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect 2300 fps from 24" under reasonable pressure limits.

[BTW, those ARE African loads. He's a PH. ]

One thought: since you're going through all the expense and work of this kind of conversion, why not open her up to ~3.5" COL (leaving the front alone)?
At 3.45" COL (26" bbl) Roy cracked 2500 fps at least three times there. Says to me you can find 2400 without too much sweat from 2" less bbl (-50 fps or so) and a wee longer seat.

Put it this way: it meets or beats the Lott, with about as much room in the magazine, and without cutting into the front of the action.
If the Lott is good, the 458-404 is good.

Now, all that said, I'd still ditch the whole idea and use a CZ for a long magnum cartridge.
But it would be a looong 458-404. Just rechamber a 458 Win.
More rounds in the mag than the Rigby, and it'll go faster than your shoulder will want it too, just like the Rigby.
They'll both do 2600 with about 110g of powder. That's a heap o' hurt on the body. Why use that monster case, with all that extra bolt thrust, when you really don't need to?
(And forget about the nostalgia factor; I heard Art A from A� designed the case for them. Quite possible the round has only been to Africa a dozen times!)

My 2�, take it or leave it!

OK, thanks for the valuable input!
I also thought that a long 458-404 would be a good idea, maybe not in my standard length action but in a long CZ for sure! More cartridges in the mag. and less powder to burn. Correct me if I'm wrong here but shouldn't the long 458-404 generate a slightly more gentle recoil compared to the 450 Rigby due to the fact that it has to burn less powder to achieve the same velocity? Given same bullet weight and rifle weight..

On the other side there are no brass available for such a one. But it should be easy to do from the 404 brass?

The only major apprehension I have on this one is the head spacing! Does the 450 Vincent long provide sufficient head spacing?

Regards

/Johan

358 Norma

I know people who have built 450 rigby rimless on Brno actions. Brass is easy to find, just neck up 416 Rigby Actually it's not that bad to shoot,even with 600 grain bullets.If you thik it lacks Uummpph add more prowder. A CZ 550 with some extra stuff is a nice rifle.

The 1640 is a fake mauser Get the real stuff The action maybe is nice but a bit small for larger rounds.

What is the diffrence between 460 G&A and 458-404?

Cheers
/JOHAN

JOHAN

Are you talking about Tomas M in Sweden? I know he has built a 450 Rigby on a CZ, seems like a great rifle.

It was actually one of my original questions.. What's the difference between 450 Vincent long, 460 G&A and the 450 Howell? The 450 Howell is shorter like the 450 G&A and the Vincent short - made to fit in standard length actions. I think the 458-404 is just a gathering name for all of those longer ones made from the 404 brass?

My thought was if the Vincent cartridges had corrected the head spacing problems present on the G&A cartridges since it is a more recent creation. Otherwise I could not see any contributions to improving the one that already was available? Anyway... What a wildcat mess this is..

Regards

/Johan

358 Norma

I know of three rifles camberd in this caliber . Never heard of Thomas M

I would go with a factory round, it saves secondhand value not to mention the ease of buying factory spuds on a lazy day

My alternatives would be 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffery or 450 Rigby rimless...

/ JOHAN

The allure of wildcats and specialty rounds has long lost it's allure with me. I've grown tired of difficult brass forming tasks, expensive brass, and expensive dies.

If you want a thumper of a 45, there are two excellent choices on the market, the 458 Lott, and the 450 Rigby. Either start with a CZ-550 458 win mag and have the chamber poked out, or get one in 416 Rigby and have it re-barreled.

You'll put much more money into your free Husky for the bottom metal and custom dies then you will going the practicle route. Also, if you want more case capacity than a 458 Lott, use a noticeably larger case, ie 450 Rigby.

Johan, the cz550 in 450 rigby or 458 lott is an easier project than the model 98 in any caliber. That being said, I think the model 98 provides a nicer result. I would suggest the 458 lott since ammo for it tends to be more available in Africa than the others that you mentioned, and there is always a possibility that the airline will lose a suitcase containing ammo.

I guess it would be a wise sollution to go for a standard cartridge. I really like the 404 Jeffery but I have already locked my target at a .458. Not because of the greater caliber, but because of the very wide selection of bullets available in .458. Of all calibers above .375 the .458 have a clear advantage in this area. From 250 grains to 600 grains from a lot of manufacturers. Even cheap lead bullets are available for training.

Unfortunately the Lott is out due to the belt.. I guess a CZ in 416 Rigby could be a good sollution after all. Then I could start with the 416 for some recoil training and rebarrel it to 450 Rigby if I think that I can take the punishment..

/Johan

500grains

If you read my first post? I was suggestign a 550 with some extra candy rather than a fake mauser like the 1640

358-Get one 416 Rigby and a 450 Rigby, nice matching pair


/ JOHAN

JOHAN
In what way do you consider the HVA 1640 to be a fake Mauser?

/Johan

(What a mess with two Johan from Sweden on the forum.. )

Hi

If you decide to use a CZ 550 , the 458 Express would be an option . Case length is a full 3 inches . Brass available from Bertram in Australia - reamers from Clymer . If Bruce is out , I have about 1500 cases in stock .

Best wishes .

Brad

The conversion of a CZ550 in .416 Rigby to a 500 A2 is incredibly simple. You can get pre-threaded, long chambered barrels from Pac-Nor and all you need is 10 minutes on a Lathe and a headspace guage. It will most likely feed with no rail/ramp work and work flawlessly after 10-15 minutes worth. No expensive brass to worry about, no expensive hard to find dies, no shortage of good bullets and way more power than a 450 Rigby. My all time favorite CZ550 conversion based on cost/Horsepower..-Rob

Thanks for the suggestions!
The 500 A2 is unfortunately not an option for me. Firstly because of the belt and secondly because its too much horsepowers, at least for my rifle.. and shoulder..

The 458 Express I have never really heard of. Isn't that a full length Lott? Like an Ackley? If so it has to go too? I'm really awkward about that belt..

Regards

/Johan

358norma



Yes, Imagine what the trouble will cause Advantage I can blame some on you



The 1640 action is a fake . The extractor claw will snap over a stuck case. The bolt stop/release is different than the 98.



My advice is to build on a CZ 550. A matched pair would be nice one in 416 and 450



/ JOHAN

Johan,

Is the 1640 the Husq based on a small ring and having an integral slide safety on the right side? I thought we were talking about a 1950's FN-style model 98. If it is not a true 98, I would go out and buy a 98.

Johan, I'm the guy you sent info on Horneber brass about a year or so ago. I bought a new 416 Rigby and made a swich barrel out of it with a 450 and a 338 barrel.

Do you know whether there is someone in sweden with a .500 A2 reamer? Would be nice to have that one along with a .300 barrel allso.

/Tomas

500grains

Yeah, thats right. I should get the real stuff! I have another 1640, actually a 1651, in 358 Norma and I really love it. But that's for mooses and they usually don't try to bite me

/Johan

Oh Boy...more food for thought!

1. 475 Ackley. Neck up a 416 Rem and launch 500 grainers at 2465 fps from a COL of 3.5 inches (these might fit in yuor Mauser action). Put the Ackley in the CZ and seat them out to 3.74 COL for 10 grs more capacity and 2550 fps. You will still only be using 100 grs of powder and have the swat of a 460 if you ever need it. Somewhere between 60 and 75 grs of other powders will cover the velocity and energy levels of the 458 Win mag and 458 Lott...in every case with less powder and less recoil.

2. Get the exact same results by necking up the 460 A-Square short. This will make 3.30 COL with ease an fit in the Mauser. Or, stay with the 458 caliber and just but the brass/ammo from A-square. 500 grainers do 2450 fps.

3. Don't like the belts? Just go with a 450 Dakota, which is an improved 450 rigby (beltless 460 Weatherby) operating at moderate pressures and designed to launch 500 gr .458s at 2450 fps.

For anyone choosing the CZ550 and who can get over "belt phobia", the 475 Ackley is an African round that can fill the gap between the 458 Lott and the 460 weatherby without getting into the severe recoil category.

The 475 Ackley might be a goo one. I really don't know. As I mentioned earlier I really like the .458 caliber with its wide variety of bullets. From 250 grain 600 grain, and a lots of different brands.

I could hardly see the 450 Dakota as an improvement of the 450 Rigby though. The Rigby was out sometime in 1995 and the Dakota some years before that. I think there are no major differences between them, they do not fit in each others chambers though..

Regards
/Johan

Since you won't have a belted case you are limited to:

458 Remington Ultra
450 Rigby/Dakota
470 "something" on the Rigby case. One of the members on this forum has poinied what he calls the 470 Mbogo which is basically a 416 Rigby necked to 475 and improved.

But you have said it really needs to be 45 calibre.

So for simplicity and cost

A Rem 700 in 300 or 375 Ultra rebarreled to 458 Ultra. If you search on the internet for something called Ultra Cats (I think that is the name) they have reamers and dies for every calibre on the Rem Ultra case from 6.5mm to 458

A CZ 416 Rigby rebarreled to 450 Rigby.

Mike

Any 404 Jefferys rendition will work fine in a FN or 98 Mauser action, thats what most of mine are. Add a drop box from Blackburn, open them up the the rear as far as possible with a tad in front and they are the perfect DGR IMO....After all the 404 is shorter than a .375, seems many fail to recognize that fact..Add a little rail work to match the Blackburn box and you have 4 down and 1 up the tube and with a tad of coaxing you can get 5 down by extending the floor plate just a little bit..I saw one of these at a show recently and it was very nice....

I have always entertained the 404 necked up to 45 cal and my dummy round I built up seems to have enough shoulder to headspace, but maybe the blown our shoulder of the 460 G&A long is a better route...

Thomas M
Sorry, the penny has fallen down How is the rifle? Is the recoil enough. I don't knwo of any 500 A2 in Sweden. If I do, you will be the first to know.

358- I know of a Dakota m-76 that is almost completed in 450 dakota. The guy who orderd it jumped off. It has a nice stick of wood. I think the price when completed is 30.000 to 35.000 sek. If any of you are interested? I have nothing in this project, just happend to know about it.

500- take it easy, I thought you knew about the fake mauser? Never mind.

/ JOHAN

JOHAN
About that Dakota m-76! I think its a little bit too much money initially for mee. Even though a project on a CZ 550 could end up in those sums easily. I could add a little more all the time and thereby keeping my wife happy without knowing

I think the final sollution have to be that I buy a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby and rebarrel it for 450 Rigby. And then rebarrel the 1640 to 404 Jeff. In that way I can have both! Why choose?

/Johan