I stopped by our local pawn shop this afternoon as I had gotten wind of them having two large bore rifles. One was a Winchester Super Express Classic in .458 WinMag and the other was a Remington .416, blue, wood stock, half band front sling swivel. I already have a .416, that not being a reason for not buying a new rifle, so I took a closer look at the Win. Three empty cases in the box of ammo, this gun is new. $500 sounded like a reasonable deal so I now have another rifle in the safe. Did I do OK? Should I leave as is or can it be rechambered to .458 Lott. Thanks, Cobalt

Cobalt,

You did REAL good!A new one will set you back $800-$1000.

Leave it as a 458 Winny.You already have a 460 Weatherby,which can be loaded down to 458 Lott velocitys.

The 458 Winny is fun to shoot and doesn't kick too bad.I'd leave it as is.

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I'm out to wrong rights,depress the opressed,and generaly make an ass of myself!

458 Lott looks too skinny and ugly. The fashion now is to have a fat and short cartridge. I like the 458 Win. the way it is. Of course, I already got a 460 WB so 458 Lott does not do much for me. The 458 Win. in a light rifle is a very effective big bore cartridge to practice on before getting anything bigger. Have fun. Cheers. Ming

Cobalt,

Why not considering a .450 Ackley. Just .05" longer than .458 Lott. Easier to form with a little bit more velocity than with the Lott.

I have this caliber and I'm very happy.

But I agree with Ming, the .458 caliber is suitable to take all animals in North American games with bullets weight 350 or 400 gr.

If you want to hunt in Africa Big 5 animals, do the rechamberring into Lott or Ackley. If it not the case keep you money.IMHO

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BER007
Keep the faith in any circumstances
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BBER007@HOTMAIL.COM

cobalt, sounds like a heck of a deal. i bought a new cz-550 safari in 458 wm, with the idea to re-work into a 460 g&a. have heard some flack about the small shoulder. however there are some very knowledgable people here that say it is not a problem. the 458 recoil is about like some 30-06 180 gners i have shot. with a 460 wby on hand, i would enjoy the wm for what it is.just my opinion of course. halfbreed

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overkill? how much more dead, is dead, than dead?

Cobalt, the 458 Win Mag is a fine cartridge, as is the Winchester rifle. The bad press the 458 Win Mag got a few years ago was caused by the advertizeing boys trying to make it into something it was't. The 458 Win Mag simply does not have the powder capacity to handle 500 gr bullets effeciently. This cartridge should have never been loaded with any bullet heavier than 450 gr, and they work much better with a 400 gr bullet. I take the powder charge that is listed for the 500 gr bullet, and substitute the 400 gr Barnes, or Woodliegh solid, and/ or the Barnes/Woodliegh soft points that are designed for 458 Win Mag use. There is no trick at all to getting the velocities claimed by the factory for the 500 gr bullet, or a little higher, with the 400 gr bullet.

The good thing about the 458 LOTT, is IT WILL handle the 500 gr bullets very well, but you can still shoot factory 458 Win Mag,ammo in a pinch. The 460 WBY mag will do absolutely nothing that a 458 Lott will not do more effeciently, with less recoil. Tests have shown that any gain in velocity over about 2150 with a solid, actually DECREASES penetration,with 500 gr .458 solids. The only thing that is gained by upping the velocity above 2150 FPS is, noise, and brused shoulders. Above it all there is nothing wrong with the old 458 Win Mag, if a little load work is done. With fairly hot loads useing the 400 gr bullets it will feel like a hot 45-70 in recoil, and is an absolute joy to shoot!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

One thing I still don't understand is that why it is acceptable for the 416 with 400-grain bullet at around 2400 fps to kill dangerous game and not the 458 at the same bullet weight and velocity. The 458 Winchester. can easily deliver 2400 fps with a good 400 grain bullet. Wouldn't the 458 Winchester be a better killer since it is bigger? The 416 maybe a little flatter in trajectory but who cares since most dangerous game are killed at a close range anyway. Any comments? Cheers! Ming

Because one is .416 dia,(41 cal) and the other is .458, you know almost (.46 cal), But what you asked is not unreasonable a 2400 fps will work fine with a .458 dia. but it isn't needed. It will do the same job at anything over 2150 fps, up to about 2500 fps. What I was trying to say is, there is no need for the 460 Wby MAg's 2650 fps with a 500 gr bullet, it actually penetrates less than the same bullet at 2150 to 2400, and the 400 gr bullet will penetrate better at lower speeds.
I can't remember the issue, maybe Ray does, but Man Magnum magazine, did some tests, to prove exactly that, stateing the extra velocity was actually a deterant to penetration.

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

[This message has been edited by MacD37 (edited 04-29-2002).]

The 416 400 gr. at 2400 fps has a greater penetration index than the 458 400 gr at 2400. Don't know if game can tell the difference.

This is blatant advertising but the Fed. 458 WM 500 gr I'm selling in Classifieds chronographed at 2125+ fps in a 25" barrel. At $2 a piece they're practically free!

I think that Remington Safari ammo for the 458 wm using 450 gr Swifts bullets at 2150 fps will kill everything on earth, for solids you can use tungsten solid 500 gr bullets from Speer.
No experience in Africa, just common sense.
My 2 cts
LG

The folks I talk to tell me they have had plenty problems with the 400 gr. 458 Win. bullets...better the 500 at 2150 FPS, it's a proven load. The 400 will, at times, fail to penetrate..Now I know someone is going to give a good experience on the one buffalo they shot with the 400 and how well it worked, and it probably did, but it cannot be depended on to work every time.

The good advise on this thread is to use that short Speer Tungston solid that leaves that critical powder space in a 458 and makes the velocity get up there without raising the pressures that have repeatedly caused 458 problems in the African heat.

Load it right and it's a fine caliber, going to light bullets isn't the answer.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,

What about the 450 grain GS Custom bullets in the .458 Win Mag?

Gerard's clients seem to think that 450 grain .458 bullets are effective on buff & elephant, and I'm sure you can get to 2,100+ fps with them.

Seems like a good compromise. What do you think?

Tim

Cobalt,

Where did you find a big bore in Niceville. I have a Win Safari Express in 375 H&H on the way. Had to go to Texas to find one.

Bob

Bob,
You won't believe this, but I found this one at the pawn shop in Palm Plaza, next to the Kelly's IGA. I went back yesterday to check out the .416 Remington again, but I really don't care for it. Besides, I have that caliber on a Sako action. My dies and brass should be here for the weekend. Bob

Cobalt

I have tried to e-mail you about the Rem 416 but the e-mail keeps bouncing??? If you aren't going to buy it, would you send me the contact info?

Thanks, Mark

GonHuntin@geotec.net

Bob,
Where are you shooting these days? I will probably be at Shoal Creek Sat morning if my dies come in.

Gone,
I stopped by there yesterday to take another look at the Remington. He wants $600 for it. I am not sure this is the Safari model. The bbl band is a clamp on and the stock swivel stud is a simple screw in affair. Not real custom. Here is the phone number. 850-678-5600. Ask for Marty, he is the owner. I am almost sure this is the correct #. My home number is 850-897-5716 if you have any problems. Bob

Thanks Bob!

Bob

I still shoot on my on range. I can get about 90 yards. Its nice when you have 40 acres to fool around with. Did you mean that you would be a Shoal River Sporting Clays on Sat. I'd like to join you. Just picked up my Safari Express 375 H&H. Won't have dies or ammo for a couple of weeks. Ammo is on the way, FEDEX ground. Dies will be shipped this Friday. Saturday mornings are for my son's T-Ball games but once the season is over we will have to get together and compare the contents of our safes. If I have time I'll stop by the pawn shop in Palm Plaza.

Later,

Bob P.