As I read over various threads I see various large bore lever actioned rifles and calibers mentioned. I've never been a fan of these but I nonetheless am interested in them if only to know what they are about.
Could someone here explain to me what they are suited for, meaning ranges, game, hunting conditions?
I'm enough of a gun nut to know what the 450 Alaskan is, and now I read about a 50 Alaskan! And then there is the old 50-110...
What type of bullet weights and velocities are these capable of? And what specific guns are best able to handle them?
Indulge me here fellas, I'm interested but don't know much of anything!

John,

If you take a look at the Wild West Guns website, you can get a fair bit of the background information you are looking for.

Keep in mind the case families involved: .45-70 and .50-110.

The .45-70 has been lengthened in a lot of different cartridges.

The .50-110 is the parent of the .348 Winchester, which is the parent of the .450 and .50 Alaskan cartridges; and, with the rim turned off, the .300 WSM. What goes around...

http://www.wildwestguns.com/

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

Jim-
Very interesting website, thanks for posting it. After reading over their various data for the 457 I'm curious to know how that compares to the 450 Alaskan. Obviously a 350gr bullet @ 2200fps is potent, but I wonder if the larger 348 case couldn't yield more velocity or handle a heavier bullet?

First, I am not a lever gun fan, my bag is classic big bore Mausers. But, I have toyed with a 50 caliber on a Marlin 336 that I built two years ago, uses a stretched 348 Win case (bigger than the 50 Alaskan and holds 90 grains powder behind a 450 grain bullet. Holding the loads to 43,000 psi (limits of a modern Marlin) and using the Oehler M43, we have obtained over 5000 ft/lbs out of a 19 inch barrel. Some 350 and 400 grain bullets topped 5300 ft/lbs. The 336 has been extensively modified to handle the large cartridge, has a heavy Pac Nor barrel that I custom machined the contour, and weighs 9-1/2 pounds. Gun handles well, has two mercury recoil absorbers in the stock and a thick pad. Those that frequented Hunt America two years ago will recall the photos I posted. More testing is in order, we are planning on chambering a barrel for a Universal Receiver with a piezo gauge for more accurate data that the M43 gives. I have made some truncated cone bronze solids for this rifle. Would I take this rifle and cartridge to Africa for Buff and Elephant? Yep, as it basically duplicates 470 Nitro energy levels. If I built another, it would be on a modern M1886 and would have a 22 inch barrel. A bigger action than the 336 is needed so the COL can be increased for a little more powder capacity. I can see this combination reaching 6000 ft/lbs. Before anyone runs to the piggy bank and wants a rifle of this nature built, I must state that it is very expensive to build as it has a lot of custom machining including Robar Roguard on the exterior and NP3 on the receiver and all moving parts. And it has been a back burner project for me, too many other projects. It is a fun gun to shoot and recoil is not all that bad.

And yes, as Jim Dodd said, what goes around comes around, nothing is new. I have followed Harold Johnson's method of shortening 50BMG bullets, turning them around in the case so the truncated cone "Boattail" is the front, and obtained awesome penetration with this rifle. Johnson did this at Coopers Landing some 50 years ago.

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 02-18-2002).]

John-
Thanks for the info. Would that case be something like a 50-110? Interesting project no doubt! I would likely want an 1886 or a 71 if I were doing something like this but since I am a bolt rifle nut I have never researched would be involved in converting one to such a cartridge. My personal thought at this point would be to do something like a 450 Alaskan or even a necked down 50-110. That should make a helluva 458 cal lever gun!

John S,

I am having 2 50 Alaskan built right now. David Clay is building one for me with a 336/1895 stainless action. He is also working on several new 50-110 based cartridges with this action. He did not seem to have any problems building a 50-110 with the 1886/71 action but I would like to see him build a 50-110 out of the Marlin action. Later. Ming

Biggest problem with the 336 is internal action length, you flat run out or room. I always wanted to build a lever 50 on the 3-1/2 inch 50 cal basic brass. The delima of using 50-110 brass is some fool will get his hands on the high powered cartridge and touch it off in some old junker.

The guy funding the 50 Marlin that I mentioned above and I have had several interesting discussions about making a large lever action designed to handle 470 Nitro cases. A nice rim, and room to neck up to 50 caliber. Build a 11 pound rifle and have 7500 ft/lbs. Looking at the design of a 336 closely, it is not too difficult a job to make a larger action. Just takes time, like anything else. I have written a pretty extensive article on the building of the 50 Marlin. Get a 336 in your hands and closely examine it, while cycling cartridges through the action. It is a controlled round feed!!! Plus with one quick glance, you can see if a round is chambered and if a round is left in the magazine. Plus you can load the magazine with a round in the chamber with the bolt closed. Try this with your double rifle. With a little improvement to the extractor, and tuning of the feed mechanism, it will make a nice DGR in the proper caliber and energy level. I worked over the action of the 50 Marlin so it would feed when on its side and upside down. Next time I shoot it I think I will try cycling the action while it is under water and seeing how well it feeds. Never know when that Hippo will dunk the dugout!

No more rambling, got to get back to the M70's and Mausers.

John:

I have to ask, what kind of accuracy are you getting out of the Marlin on steroids?

Thanks John Ricks for the info. It is good to know that one more person can do the conversion on a big bore lever action. I hope you will complete the project and may be do some more conversions for those of us that like big bore lever action. Cheers! Ming

GatoGordo, around 3/4" at 50 yards with ghost ring peep. Younger eyes than mine could do better. Ming, the rifle is basically complete, we just need to do some serious proof loads in a legitimate universal receiver with accurate pressure equipment.

I see great potential in "Express" lever guns, but some time and capital is required to bring something like this to market. I see the following needed for success:

1) A big rimmed case, made to match the rifle, properly headstamped. Need to get away from straight cases, a bottle neck feeds much better. This is why I am thinking of a 470 Nitro or 577 Nitro or something similar as basic brass.

2) A larger receiver, maybe a scaled up 336 or 1886

3) Ultra realiable feeding and ejection (meaning a stronger extractor) (It would be real easy to install a Mauser type extractor in a scaled up receiver)

4) Serious testing of loads in a test lab such as H.P. White.

Running a big case at around 40,000 psi (akin to the 500 Jeffery situation) would really work in a big lever action.

The prototype rifle handles extremely well, with the 19 inch barrel, muzzle weight, and short receiver, the handling is like a double rifle.

I have a pile of photos, I will try and get some scanned and posted.

Any overly rich benefactors out there? I would take on this project if the $$$ was available. I have all the basic design worked out, just need a dedicated year or so to bring everything together.

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Currently in Exile on the Beautiful Olympic Peninsula of Washington State.

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John-
I'm thinking that a person could take the 50-110 case and neck it down to 458cal. Wonder what the ballistics for might be? If it would develope 2100fps or more with 500gr bullets the problem would be solved, at least for me!

Either the 50-110 or the stretched 348 that I used for the 50 cal project will do. I have some QuickLoad calcs in my files with exactly this combination. Plus the 45 cal. feeds 10 times better due to the bottle neck (the 45 cal bullet enters that chamber with that big mouth dia. very nicely). I will do a little digging in the file cabinet. This case necked to 458 has a larger water capacity than a 458 Win Mag, so should be able to run at lower pressure than a 458 Win at the same velocity. Only disadvantage is the long 500g bullet and COL limitations of the 336.

John-
Thanks very much for the info! If you managae to dig it up please post it here or just send me an email. I am going to build one of these as a "fun" project and definitely prefer the 458cal to anything larger.