SHOW ME THE DEATH CERTIFICATE.
I drive Buses with the ads on the side saying, "53,000 people die each year from secondhand smoke".
REALLY?
I'd love to see the death certificate stating the cause of death was secondhand smoke.
I DON'T believe it for one minute.

SO, with all the Remington 700 bashing on the net, I want to see some PROOF.

I would like to see actual, documented cases of failures in the field re PH's or Clients who've been killed by dangerous game OR have had the bolt handle come off while hunting with a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle...

NO "my cousin's uncle's friend's" stories, either.
REAL, live link on the internet or copies of actual 'DEATH BY 700' or photos and testimony of or by someone who's holding the handle.

[ 08-01-2003, 06:37: Message edited by: BusMaster007 ]

I wasn't hunting dangerous games at the time but I have had two problems with Remington 700. The first was hen I was doing some load developement, drove the pressure a little high, case stuck a little, put some force on the bolt handle and it popped righ off. Not that much force either.
The other occured when quickly cycling a bolt when I was shooting chucks, skipped right over a round and chambered air. Had I been hunting dangerous game when either one of these problem occured, I might not be here talking about it.

I have driven passed graveyards filled with the victims of second hand smoke, the Bermuda Triangle, Global Warming, Alien abductions, sexual harassment, non organic vegetables, guns exploding from exceeding max loads, and predatory loans by banks.

I'm not so sure about the other stuff, Mac, but I think global warming is caused by cow farts...

Not really trying to stir the shitpot; just wondering where the 'proof' is.
I appreciate the reasons most hunters of dangerous game prefer to use the Mauser/CRF action and on this Forum it's almost universally recommended, while other actions are equally condemned.
It's really the documentation, rather than opinion, heresay, or anything else, that I'm prompting someone to post.

I ask because I see that there are so many 'real deal' hunters here.
If the documentation were put forth from THIS crowd, it would carry a lot more weight than the general trashing of non-Mauser/CRF actions as merely opinions.

The point of saving money (theirs and/or the customer's) in producing an alternative action doesn't equate to cheating the customer, unless the only way to NOT cheat them is to produce a Mauser/CRF clone.

Same goes for the 'shortcomings'.
They may be pluses for some people or styles of shooting.
The preferred rifle of the dangerous game hunter may have its own shortcomings, or 'what ifs'.

This is one reason I posted about this.
Not everyone on this board is a seasoned all-world hunter born with an original thought...
Many newcomers, including myself, are seeking answers from the strangers on the internet who will help us understand the differences, even stating what those shortcomings are in their own favorites.
Help us out here. There's new shooters with dreams and money to be spent! Time's a wastin'.

Sure, I'm happy with my Remington 700's. I trust them. Makes me happy.

As has been said here, difference of opinion is a good thing.

[ 08-02-2003, 09:46: Message edited by: BusMaster007 ]

I'm not a fan of a Remington 700, but I'm not afraid of one either, must be millions of them around. For me the bolt handle is too short, requiring too much force to open almost pulling the rifle from my shoulder. For most varmint hunters it doen't matter.

My remington 600 (same action, different bolt handle) discharged one day as I closed the bolt. And NO, I did not touch the trigger. I sent it back to Rem and they replaced the trigger for free.

The problem, as has been documented in the Gunsmithing forum, is that Rem triggers can develop loosness in the parts that leads to accidental discharges. there have been a handful of deaths too.

Here's some more information:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/02/07/eveningnews/main270219.shtml

The other problems with the rem 700 are:

1. el cheapo extractor

2. so-so ejector

3. weak bolt handle attachment

4. safety that does not lock the bolt down

5. new key lock that just invites trouble

6. generally rough quality these days

7. lack of aesthetics

Many people are satisfied with Remington rifles and I am happy for them. I think that most of these don't have a lot of experience with M98s and their clones. I grew up with a war souvenir mauser and all push feed rifles just seem cheap by comparison.

Longbob-I know you know that is an Enfield, a smart idea Reminton
borrowed.They should have kept on making them.
And pushed 35 Whelens.Would have sold thousands.
And developed a cartridge line to use bigbore
versions of 375 H&H brass.If they would have
adopted the 475 OKH, back in 40s they would have owned the bigbore world.Elmer would have liked that.And the pyros would have had many more actions to play with.Ed.

I suggest that you keep on smoking or start..buy a Remington DGR, get rid of the brakes in your car (you can gear down), whatever else turns you on, after all its your life and you can do as you please, it bothers me not in the least..Kindly allow me the same

I shoot controlled feed rifles, I don't smoke, I don't want to breath second hand smoke and I know a lot of folks that have been tossed, stomped, bitten and one that was killed by dangerous game.

I suspect that you have been here before but under a different name and you like to stir things up with unadulterated BS.....

Ed,

You let out my secret. I agree with you about Remington. They should have stuck with that design and we would not be having this discussion. My 30-S is a 30-06. A 35 Whelen would be interesting. I currently have a 35 Whelen in a Ruger. It was one of the special runs of 500 from a couple of years ago. It is amazingly accurate.

Wasn't the Rem model 30 just the Rem version of the 1917 after the war when they still had parts in inventory? I thought Rem continued the run until they used up all the parts and then that was it. Too bad, because if Rem made the model 30, I would buy Remington products.

BusMaster,

Actually, I felt that the Death Certificate route you were going down had
something of merit, but not from the angle you were coming from. That is
why I posted what I posted. Like I said, on the Death Certificate there is
no reference to the factors leading up to the death.

The factors leading up to a death, goring, injury, and or accidental firing
by any rifle is relevant. You can be killed while using a D'Arcy Echols
Legend rifle while hunting dangerous game just like you can be killed while
using a Model 700. That's why they call it "Dangerous Game." The margin of
error is much, much greater with D'Arcy's rifles than it is with a bone
stock Model 700. Of course these are two ends of the pendulum, but there
are other things that can cause problems while hunting dangerous game. Here
are some examples.

Feeding - Each round should be checked for smooth feeding PRIOR to the hunt.
I had to discard about 5% of my 458 Lott rounds because they didn't feed
perfectly. If it is a gun problem, then that needs to be fixed. If not,
just make sure you only take rounds that feed properly.

Extractor - This is an advantage to the CRF under moments of stress. I have
a couple of Weatherby's that feed wonderfully well, but I wouldn't trust any
push feed in a circumstance that I experienced. When I hunted my Buffalo
last September, I had to sprint after him while firing a total of 9 shots
over a distance of about 400yds of running. Every round fed perfectly and
none short stacked. This is something I have never trained for and thank
goodness I had a forgiving type of rifle. Winchester Model 70.

Trigger - The margin of error on a Remington has been drastically reduced
because of an unnecessary and faulty design. I am referring to the floating
connector. A poster by the name of CAS has a couple of pictures that
illustrate this very well. The floating connector is held in place by a
light spring. The trigger must be kept very clean, free of debris, and
rust. Otherwise, this connector will be out of position and BANG! No other
manufacturer feels that this design is necessary including the replacement
manufacturers like Timney & Jewell. Even the designer for Remington thought
this was a bad idea after he had time to reflect on it.

In short, any rifle will kill game dead as dead including a Remington. The
preference that many share for the CRF for dangerous game (and other game
for that matter) seems to hinge on fewer potential problems.

Cool.
That's the kind of information I was hoping for!

The aftermarket has all kinds of toys to improve upon the offerings of the various manufacturers.
I'm anxiously awaiting my new Brownells catalog...

What potential problems, even if they are fewer, would the preferred DRG rifle action have to look out for?

Case, very well, and respectfully, made, Longbob!

Mac & Bus,

Thank you.