Gents,

I may have a problem or maybe not.

I have a left-handed model 70 in 375HH.

Is the bolt supposed to pickup the round from the magazine and hold it into the chamber?

Mine does not do this. It will control the round after it has been completely chambered, but not from the magazine follower.

I ask this as I'm going to have another 70 I have in 300 Win, rebarreled to 458 and while working a dummy round thru it, it will not pickup and controlthe round from the magazine either.

I assumed the CRF function was to carry the round at all times during functioning of the bolt. Am I wrong or not. If so, I have two model seventies that do not work properly.

Thanks,

Roger QSL

As you move the bolt forward and the face of the bolt contacts the cartridge the extractor groove of the case should slide between the bolt face and the extractor. As soon as the round has risen fully in front of the bolt it should be controlled. This is why you can cycle a CRF rifle upside down (why this is improtant I am not sure).

Is the extractor actually getting in the extractor groove on the case? Is the cartridge base sitting flush with the bolt face?

Red

Red,

No, the round simply rises out of the magazine box and slides in front of the bolt face. It will not be controlled until the bolt is fully closed.
As to loading upside down, on a couple of tries, the shell never came out of the well. On a couple of other tries, it simply fell on the floor. Not good I guess.

These tries at control feed were done without a shell in the chamber, just in the magazine box.

One other note for you, the dummy round is loaded with a 210 bullet, no powder, and no primer. Not sure if overall bullet weight has a bearing in this process.

Thanks,

Roger QSL

Are you sure you have the Classic 70? Or just the CPF 70? The CRF 70 grab the rim of the cartridge as soon as it is free of the magazine.

It's the classic.

I had one (RH) that had the wrong follower in it. Browning switched out the follower for the correct one and it worked fine after that.

quote:

Is the bolt supposed to pickup the round from the magazine and hold it into the chamber?

Mine does not do this. It will control the round after it has been completely chambered, but not from the magazine follower.

Roger,
My Classic SE .375 will feed and control an empty case - no bullet required.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I had one (RH) that had the wrong follower in it. Browning switched out the follower for the correct one and it worked fine after that.

I am shocked after you and some of your cronies tried to convince me that Rem PFs were trash and CRFs never failed.

Bear in mind that the model 70 in question is not CRF. It is feeding as a push feed. Like all of them it is a factory rifle, some don't work as it should. I have a Ruger 7x57 that certainly doesn/t CRF properly, but that doesn't mean it is trash, just needs some work. I believe it has the wrong mag box as it doesn't come near the rails, my .416 sits flush against them. The cartridge should almost jump up behind the extractor, even when moved slowly forward about 1 in.

Dwight, I think the key is PROPERLY CONFIGURED CRF don't have failures. They aren't the one size fits many that push feeds are.

Roger, sounds like something is definitely wrong. The bullet weight shouldn't be a factor. Look at it when the bolt first starts the cartridge out of the magazine, what is the extractor doing? When bringing them out how is ejection?

I have the Win Safari Express (classic) in 375. I'll try to remember to take some pics tonight and post them for you. Maybe comparing would help you out.

Red

Model 70s are very good rifles and so are many others. I like shooting Rem 700s and the only reason I made my comment is because I had a discussion about Rem XCRs a while back and 500 grain came in and a couple others showing their butts about how bad Rems are. I don't trash any manufacturer. If someone wants to explain something technically fine but don't trash the manufacturer.

Your pics would be appreciated.

Dwight, rest assured that Remingtons are junk. They are junk by design. The Winchester is a good design but quality control has gone out the window.

Understand the difference between design and quality control?

I forgot, I have the bolt apart right now as I am working ont he safety, I'll get it together and take the pics. freeze your ass off cold out there right now though.

My Winchester was just a stroke of good luck, straight out of heaven. Guy bought it and never shot it (he said) still had receipt for 11xx. I paid I think 650, got 2 boxes of federal ammo. I had to have the sling swivel band fixed by my gunsmith and he inspected it and said he couldn't believe how nice it was, that they must have outsourced it. Has Williams bottom metal somehow (at least I think it is, one piece, steel, and W stamped on it).

Red

Red,

Looking more closely at what happens during the bolt cycle:

Bolt travels about 1 inch after picking up case.
Case is pushed up onto the face of the bolt only halfway.
Case is now loose of the extractor claw.
Case acts as if in push feed mode.
When case is pushed into chamber, the claw grabs the case and holds it.

The follower has a raised area on the side of the ejection side of action. Don't know if it's supposed to be on this side. Remember, this is a left-handed action. The left-handed 300 I have, has the follower on the same side.

Roger QSL

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
Model 70s are very good rifles and so are many others. I like shooting Rem 700s and the only reason I made my comment is because I had a discussion about Rem XCRs a while back and 500 grain came in and a couple others showing their butts about how bad Rems are. I don't trash any manufacturer. If someone wants to explain something technically fine but don't trash the manufacturer.

Your pics would be appreciated.

The 700 Rem is a poor design for a DGR! Where would you place the blame for that, on the owner, or the people who designed it?

Nobody cusses Remington, only the PUSH FEED design, no matter who makes it, if the rifle is to be used for dangerous game.

The CRF mod 70 can be fixed if it doesn't work properly, but the 700, or any PF will be a PF no matter what you do! They weren't made that way because they would be better, but simply to improve the maker's bottom line,because they can be made cheaper nothing more.

I simply can't see why you Rem addicts get so upset when attention is called to their problems! I have some 700s, and one 788 Remington rifles, but I don't get upset if someone pointed out that they are not well designed for use as a DGR! They are fine for deer , and elk hunting, but there is absolutely no sane reason to chamber them for any cartridge above 375 H&H, and then only to be used for non-dangerous game, like Moose, and elk! Why get mad at the messenger who is only delivering a warning, by pointing out the flaws of the PF design?

Geez guys,

Didn't intend this to develop into a debate on PF versus CRF. Only looking for some help on a problem on a new gun. Thought maybe someone would have a simple fix for my problem.
Probably should have submitted to the gunsmithing forum, but thought the big bore group would be more familiar with this action design.

Roger QSL

Roger don't let it bug you.
Some double gun shooter will eventually tell them their CRFs are crap too.

Roger, your simple fix is posted above. Just read the replies.

the following person is at the head of MY horse's ass list because he is a blowhard, self-important lying, showdown dodging, cowardly, pompous ass: 500 grains, aka danny boy.

Just thought I'd update everyone.

Rich
DRSS

hi Roger,
I have a mdl 70 in 25wssm and noticed the same problem. Atfer putting a couple of hundred rounds through it seems to be getting better. But like you I am dissapointed, it should work out of the box, I souldn't have to break it in,

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[ by pointing out the flaws of the PF design?

Well it's not very often we have people pointing out the flaws of the CRF design.

They obviously can be difficult to get to work properly, some people don't even know they're not working as a CFR should.

They can be a bugger to "top up" with one up and a full mag. as well, or even to get a fast single shot loaded.

The biggest problem is that they can get you killed. If you short shuffle your last round when you most need it, well it's gone, hasen't it. CRFeed its self right out of the rifle.

The report I read on the famous CRF Brno's at a PH test was that they LOVED to jam a cart. into the top lug space.

Lets not forget, some PH's were listed as using PF's. (In the African Hunting forum) This includes the Weatherby's to I guess.

So I'm thinking there's more to it than what action type you have. They all need correct operating techniques to be as fail-safe as possible. None guarentee you won't get trampled.

Roger,

It may be something simple and easy to correct:

Check the tension of your extractor. Remove the bolt and while holding it in your hand, insert and remove a cartridge case directly under the extractor claw. You may have a small burr or the tension may be too tight to allow the cartridge to properly slip in place during cycling. Mr. Williams makes your extractor and he has detailed instructions on his web page on setting proper tension.

If the extractor tension is set correctly and there are no burrs to impede the CRF functioning; look at the mag box, follower and spring. The follower needs to freely move w/in the mag box w/out binding. It must give some to allow a cartridge on one side to ride over a cartridge on the other side, but there needs to be enough upward spring tension/force to hold the cartridge up and allow it to snap in place behind the extractor claw as it is cycled. Make sure the mag box is squarely seated in its inlet and free of burrs. Make sure the follower smoothly moves up and down. If this looks okay then fill the mag box full of cartridges and test cycling. If it cycles properly when full but fails on the last cartridge, then your culprit may be a weak spring. Wisner makes a #MS spring that would be a $10 fix.

Lastly, if all above is correct then it may very well be something to do w/ the feed rails and/or follower. If possible, borrow a spring and follower from a different rifle and see if this helps. I had a CZ 375H&H that would not feed, so I went to the gunsafe and began testing different followers from Winchesters and Mausers. Ended up that the follower from a M70 Supergrade made the CZ function flawlessly.

If you then cannot correct it by the follower, it may be an issue w/ the receiver rails. In this case it needs to go to a competent smith.

As a note, after countless headaches dicking around w/ my misfeeding CZ and needing to return the Supergrade follower to its parent rifle, I took the CZ to a competent smith (guild). He had me fire the rifle on his indoor range to demonstrate the malfunction. He looked at it and said "I see" and then took the rifle to his workbench where he put the follower in a vise and reshaped it w/ air tools. It took him all of 5 minutes and when he gave it back to test, it feed slick as owl shit. I later compared what he did to the CZ follower to the M70 Supergrade follower and found that he made a relief cut on the CZ follower that was near identical to such cut on the M70 follower. I suspect that this eliminated the CZ follower from binding in the mag box which was the culprit of my woes.

So in the end, I'd rather pay someone competent to correct feeding issues vs suffer frustration when it is over my head.

Good Luck,
GVA

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[ by pointing out the flaws of the PF design?

Well it's not very often we have people pointing out the flaws of the CRF design.

They obviously can be difficult to get to work properly, some people don't even know they're not working as a CFR should.

They can be a bugger to "top up" with one up and a full mag. as well, or even to get a fast single shot loaded.

The biggest problem is that they can get you killed. If you short shuffle your last round when you most need it, well it's gone, hasen't it. CRFeed its self right out of the rifle.

The report I read on the famous CRF Brno's at a PH test was that they LOVED to jam a cart. into the top lug space.

Lets not forget, some PH's were listed as using PF's. (In the African Hunting forum) This includes the Weatherby's to I guess.

So I'm thinking there's more to it than what action type you have. They all need correct operating techniques to be as fail-safe as possible. None guarentee you won't get trampled.

And this was what the report said of the Weatherby:

"I�ll start with my least favourite rifle:- the Weatherby. We don�t often see them out here, thank goodness. The one we had this year exhibited the usual Weatherby failing of going off when the safety catch was disengaged. Like all I�ve seen with this problem, they work fine on the range. It is only after they have been bounced, bumped or jolted whilst loaded and on safe that they do this. I�m sure the problem is correctable and not all do it, however, this one would also not extract at all after the eighth round. It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading. Weatherby factory ammo always gives extraction problems and needs to be down loaded for use in hot conditions. The .460 is notorious and this .416 proved no different." - Rifle Lessons learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam.

I agree w/ you that there is more to it than what action type you have. I'm sure there are plenty examples of malfunctioning CRF as well as PF rifles. I think user error and/or preparedness may account for its share of malfunctions as well.

GVA

Gary,

Thanks for your report. All you stated has merit. Will work on your suggestions. This will hopefully work for both 70's I have. Would very much like to re-barrel the 300 to 458.

Again, thanks

Roger QSL

I think the only thing that matters for a DG rifle is that it feeds well and is accurate.

Finn Aagaard used a PF rifle in 458 Win Mag for his stopping rifle, as do other African PH’s.

Paul Mauser died while trying to redesign the M98 to a push feed configuration, which he thought was superior (but at the time was apparently more expensive to produce).

My PF rifles all feed better than my CRF rifles out of the box, and digest bullet shapes that the CRF rifles have problems with.

As I’ve said before, the most common failure to feed in the field for bolt action rifles is the floorplate popping open and dumping shells under recoil. Short stroking the bolt and causing a jam (which CRF obviates) isn’t even a blip on the radar screen.

Garrett

Roger,

Gary is right on. I went out late that night to the shop and finished the work on the safety, reassembled everything, got the camera in there, only to find that if I have only one round in the magazine it does just what yours does! I am fairly certain that the spring is the culprit, as I have had no function problems with it previously and only noticed it now when working it slowly forward to get pics.

I am going to contact Jim for a new spring, hopefully it will be here this week (If I can get ahold of him tomorrow). if so I'll switch out before I go out of town again Friday and post the results.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by N. Garrett:

Paul Mauser died while trying to redesign the M98 to a push feed configuration, which he thought was superior (but at the time was apparently more expensive to produce).

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
Model 70s are very good rifles and so are many others. I like shooting Rem 700s and the only reason I made my comment is because I had a discussion about Rem XCRs a while back and 500 grain came in and a couple others showing their butts about how bad Rems are. I don't trash any manufacturer. If someone wants to explain something technically fine but don't trash the manufacturer.

Your pics would be appreciated.

The 700 Rem is a poor design for a DGR! Where would you place the blame for that, on the owner, or the people who designed it?

Nobody cusses Remington, only the PUSH FEED design, no matter who makes it, if the rifle is to be used for dangerous game.

The CRF mod 70 can be fixed if it doesn't work properly, but the 700, or any PF will be a PF no matter what you do! They weren't made that way because they would be better, but simply to improve the maker's bottom line,because they can be made cheaper nothing more.

I simply can't see why you Rem addicts get so upset when attention is called to their problems! I have some 700s, and one 788 Remington rifles, but I don't get upset if someone pointed out that they are not well designed for use as a DGR! They are fine for deer , and elk hunting, but there is absolutely no sane reason to chamber them for any cartridge above 375 H&H, and then only to be used for non-dangerous game, like Moose, and elk! Why get mad at the messenger who is only delivering a warning, by pointing out the flaws of the PF design?

I make it point not to trash other manufacturers but as far as being a REM Addict, I own both Rems and Wins and neither of mine have ever failed in any way. I fail to see how anyone can fault either company.

ALL LH Model 70's are CRF.

quote:

I am going to contact Jim for a new spring, hopefully it will be here this week (If I can get ahold of him tomorrow). if so I'll switch out before I go out of town again Friday and post the results.

Red,
Let me know if it works for you.
If it does, I would like the number of the party your dealing with. Also, the part number.
Don't know if there is a difference in parts as far as the left-handed action is concerned.

Thanks,

Roger QSL