You guys have all told me that my 270 grain Jacketed
soft points, going at 2800 fps out of my CZ might slightly over penetrate any home invader.


I've always wondered if the slight difference in bullet size was enough to cause major problems in shooting, let's say, 200 grain speer golddots, at 451, out of a 450 Ackley or Lott?

My idea here is a moderate, 2400-3100 fps with the bullet, hoping that it would basicly explode, causing rather graphic trauma, without the threat of over penetration, similar to a Glasser safety slug?

Keep in mind, I'm not intrested in a real tack driving round, but something out to maybe 20 feet, max.

Anyone tried this?

Any possible damage to the rifle?

etc.

s

socrates,

dunno about using .451s in your .458", but if i had my druthers, i'd take a hi-vel frangible .223 in nice shorty AR for what you've got in mind (house clearing, CQB stuff)-- minimal recoil, fast followup, no overpenetration worries. if you did have an intruder, just squeezing off a few fireforming (cream of wheat and soap) loads from a Lott or AI *INDOORS* should be enough to scare 'em off or at least deaf'en 'em!

btw, check your Private Messages-- i sent you one about your AI.

cheers

Socrates,
I have considered the same idea using a Barnes MZ bullet (.451 dia), but was advised against it by a reputable reloader.
Try the 300 grain Speer Unicore HP. It is a .458 diameter bullet with a very thin jacket. I have used them in my .450 Ackley and .458 Win Mag with great success. The end result will be that you turned your buffalo rifle into a giant varmit rifle. I have used them on whitetail deer without exiting per say (doesn't leave much to eat). It does knock them back about 10yds though.
I think this is the effect you are looking for, Timberghost

I haven't tried it, but I bet you can't get the bullets to hold. .007" is a good bit of neck tension to loose. Hey, I've got a buddy with both a 45/70 and a 45 acp. I'll ask him to resize a 45/70, and see if it can hold a .451 bullet.

I would think it would just fall in the case, btw, but that's pre-experiement.

jeffe

I just thought about this a bit. I don't think the 451's will work. However, CAST bullets, using a variety of tricks, are often larger coming out of the mold, and have to be sized, and lubed, down to the given size. Perhaps I could find an old, 45-70 cast mold, for a lighter bullet, cast it out of either very soft lead, and use a gas check, and perhaps drill out the nose on a keith style round, to make it expand, and open up?

The 300 speer unicore bullets are no longer offered by speer, at least from my search of their website.

Bed time.

s

I have used .308" bullets with success in .303's and 7.65X53mm's, but I think .007" is a bit too much for accuracy, but it's worth a try. Just use a .45 ACP expander button.....

The sierra pro hunter 300 gr HPFN's are a .458 cal bullet and might do what your asking, they shed there jackets and expand very rapidly on thin skinned stuff here and do not over penetrate @ 2150 fps.

Socrates,

You may be able to "paper patch" these bullets to get them to work. A better alternative may be to sabot with a .429" pistol bullet. This would require the manufacture of custom sabots.

Personally, it is almost certainly more work than it is worth.

TEG

PC may have the best idea. I've always thought the ideal bullet weight for an anti-home invader was 200 grains, if the bullet was made of soft lead, with a light jacket, and hollowpointed.
Guy Named John Browning also designed the 1911 for use with a 200 grain bullet.

Detonics used the speer flying ashtray, at about 1200 fps with devastating results, and Peter Pi, and corbon use 200 grain hps, speers, with their 45 Colt defense round.

In the unlikly event something occurs, it would be nice to use a similar bullet in a Lott.

Still, 300 grains, if it blows up quickly, might be a better solution for such situations, in 458.

I've thought of the paper patch idea for such rounds.

Currently, I'm limited to 270's in a 375, and my guess is these softpoints might go well through most things around here. Saving grace is we are below ground level, sort of, on one side, and open on the other..

s

okay, I still think this is out of the box, but..

I called my buddy and after he got his arms around the idea, we tried it. it NEARLY works.. that is, when you have that little neck tension, the bullets fall into the case... but!!!

while it's untired, what you COULD do it to load it with , and then use a lee crimp die for 45LC on it to seat/crimp the bullets. This would draw the brass in enough to shoot the .451s, 200, 225, or 180.. your choice. Might not be a bad thing to do with some "stressed" brass?
jeffe

Socrates - Rather than trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, I'd take a little different approach.

Do you have a shotgun? Do you have a big bore pistol? If not, get one.

Your idea won't harm your gun, but it will your brass. Paper patching between these two diameters is bullshit.

Frankly, I can conceive of no way such a large rifle, or any high powered rifle for that matter, can be an ideal home defense gun. ESPECIALLY if anyone else lives in the house with you.

The hands down winner for home defense and close in work is a short shotgun. Always has been and likely always will be. (Unless you've got some hand grenades) End of story.

Jeffe - I've tried a LOT of screwy things with ammunition just to see if I could...and certainly there are ways one COULD do this. WHY is the pregnate question.

Patching or special crimping of such ammunition would create ammunition VERY likely to jam on loading IMHO. End result is one could end up with NO WEAPON...or one stuck up his butt.

I think we just need to say this is an idea whose time has not come. If it is ALL in the world a fellow has to work with, then we'll figure out a way if we have to super glue the bullet in the case. But the best option is just use a shotgun or good pistol.

Nothing loosens a prowler's bowels faster than hearing a pump shotgun or big auto pistol chamber a round.

Socrates- I'll let you in on a secret. Take any .451 pistol bullet 180-300 grs. Cast lead works really well too. Make a paper patched bullet using .004 100 % rag typing paper with about 2 wraps agound the bullet. Wet the patch, wrap it and twist a tail in place. Let it dry. When dry, cut off the tail and liberally coat with powdered graphite and/ or Corbin Dip lube.. If you have a PURE soft lead bullet this will be even more impressive. These bullets should mike out .459-.460 for best results. Load them to a velocity of < 2000 fps and WATCH OUT. You will never see expansion like this in your life! You can use jacketed pistol bullets, cast bullets, Pure Lead etc. It all works. Do not use a gun with a Muzzel brake attached with these. Otherwise try it, I've used these for years in my 45-70,458 win, 450 Ackley.
By the way for home protection, probably nothing beats a Benelli super-90.-Rob

Thanks Rob.

Does your Ackley reamer chamber for a 375 based cartridge, with a slight shoulder?
Or, is it the Short 458 Win Mag, with a slight shoulder?

Thanks

s

Pecos:
I think you are on the money. I always did like those light, short, 1896, pump action shotguns, but, I've never owned one.

Beautiful sound when they chamber a round...

Anyway, I love 45, and, since I've got two rather
nice 45's, one long, and one short, I was thinking about a rifle of sorts. I'm probably going to be taking a trip over to see Rob, and see what he can do with that reamer, and go for the Ackley 450 on a CZ 458 win mag.

I've done a lot of stuff with 45's.

One of my favorites is to take a 45 Colt case, fill it with H-110, put a 200 grain hollow point for defense, or a 230 grain super hard, lead ball, over it, and push it around 1700+fps out of a linebaugh 45.

Sort of a cheap glasser safety slug.

Anyway, I was thinking about the Lott/Ackley 45 and figured I could do some fun stuff with that as well. A CZ, with Espress sites, wouldn't be all THAT bad as a home defense weapon...

s

Pecos: I guess part of this comes from a long time ago. About 30 years ago, I did some sabot testing, using a remmington pump shotgun, with a scope mounted. We tested 500 grain 45 caliber sabots, at around 1500-1700 fps, and, we tried to work up the most accurate load before production.
The line wasn't long to bench test these guys, and I'd do it until the cows came home. However, I think the sabots were way to hard for home defense.
Still, if they didn't get a chance to stablilize, they cut a nasty hole as they cartwheeled through whatever they hit...
s

Socrates- My reamer is for the 450 Ackley Magnum- Full size 375 case with a slight shoulder forming a parallel neck and headspacing off the belt. I really have no experience with a 458 win with a neck? I don't get that one at all.-Rob

Rob:
On another forum, they have an ackley based on the 458 win case, but necked down, with a shoulder, that somehow improves velocity?

Anyway, I'm intrested in doing a Lott, in a couple months, when I have some spare cash.

I'll be in touch, and bring the rifle accross the bay..

GS

Socrates- I still don't see what adding aneck to a ,458 win does other than reduce the powder capacity. Anyway, what rifle do you want to change over to a Ackley? Do you want a rechamber or rebarrel? The 450 Ackley is a very very fine cartridge IMHO and you won't be disappointed. Better consider a triple X recoil pad at the minimum and a muzzel brake if necessary. This thing has some serious Horsepower, but I know you know that.-Rob

458 Winchester Improved is to the 458 Winchester what the 585 Nyati is to the 577 Nitro. Not to the same degree but the same idea.

Rob, one of the guys around here has a beautiful
rifle for sale, right now, and I don't have the money, at least for a month or so.

Anyway, I'm looking for a used CZ 550 458 Magnum, to ream out to either the 450 Ackley, or the Lott.

I also, don't see what the advantage of such a reaming on a short action, 458 winmag, but I only brought it up because I think Ackley did something like this.

Apparently, there is a benefit to a slight shoulder, according to Gene, one of my local gun gurus(designed a 50 caliber rifle cartridge, the Capstick I believe it's called)IIRC.

As you'll see in another post I just made, people seem to take this caliber lightly, not giving it the respect it deserves.

I wish I had 450 bucks floating around right now, I could pick up the rifle I'm after, pretty much completed.

s

I bought a 45acp to 45-70 adapter .Didn't expect too much , didn't get too much .It wobbled down the barrel of my 1885 to get 8-10" groups at 50 yds. The paper patch idea sounds good.

Just try running one layer of masking tape around the base of the bullet. Seat as usual. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Socrates

you've got mail!

Wouldn't it be possible to swage the .451" bullets UP to .458?

500 Grains:
I've used a sizer and lube combo, a long time ago.

It was pretty good at sizing down, but I don't think you could make it size UP.

Franz:

Thanks for the suggestion.

Problem is, I sort of deleted it, without taking a good look at it.

Seems like all the messages I'm getting on this email account are fakes, sending files around 147k, that all look like virus', and, usually are.

If you could drop me a personal message, through the private messages, I'd love to have a second look at it.

Thanks

s

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Wouldn't it be possible to swage the .451" bullets UP to .458?

You can swage up a .451 bullet up to .458 diameter with the right swage die. It's a stretch, though, and the same tools that you need to do even a fair job of reforming existing bullets will make really good bullets using jackets and lead wire. Costs less than bullets, usually, and makes any weight you want, any style.

A really simple tool to make .458 practice bullets is the Pro-Swage die (www.Corbins.com/proswage.htm). You can swage simple bullets from lead, lead and jacket, or from .451 existing cast or jacketed bullets with some resrictions. It works with any sturdy reloading press.

I have loaded some 32 acp 60 gr gold dots into a 308 at 2600 they well not go through a full pop can. they just blow up on contact. Great for shooting rabbits ect out to 50 yards or so. Past that they some times tumble.

I haven't tried any 45 caliber stuff.

But a .357 125 gr hollow point at 2400 fps out of a 14 inch contenter and a 357 max case doesn't give much pentration.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooo,

you find a cast bullet guy that has a 458 caliber mould for rifles. You slip him a $20 and he casts, sizes, and lubricates a box of pure lead projectiles. The standard 500gr RFN mould throws about a 535gr pure lead bullet. They mushroom inside a perp to about 2 1/2" diameter...looking for all the world like a fender washer on steroids. One of my brothers used to own a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog revolver. He did that with a 240gr full wadcutter Lyman GC mould. Pure lead....went about 300gr with lube and a gascheck. Penetrated about 1.5" into a couple sheets of stacked particle board. 2+" mushroom with a little copper GC center. Looked like a copper-plated dog dish hubcap on a gray tire. Remember those cheap-ass hubcaps that came stock on the 1968 Roadrunner coupes? Had a red one, and they were the absolute first thing to go. Then the 3:23 open rear end... instant package: 3:91 posi-trac pumpkin, and G70 and L50 tires on Magnum 500's...just like Sox & Martin.

I was cool...back then

Rich

You don't really need pure lead, or lead at all. You just need to fill the HP with grease or silicone caulk. Same effect occurs even with JHPs, and it's a lot easier.