I am having a .404J built and plan on a buff hunt. I am trying to decide what combination of bullets I should use for this. I am told that one or two SN followed by solids is the way to go. The solids for follow-up shots.

I would like to know if there are SN/FMJ bullets that will shoot close to the same point of impact. I am looking at 400 or 450 Grain Woodleighs that LOOK like they might do the trick. I would load them myself to the same velocity level, etc., but I have no experience with trying to make solids and softs shoot to the same point of impact.

Any suggestions?

I have a 404 and have used 400 grain tsx bullets on safari. Theory that solids are unnecessary with that bullet except for elephant. With ele in mind, I have been playing with the 450 gr Woodleighs, both from Norma and loaded by Hendershots. POI with both is very close.

I also concur that the TSX or the Woodleigh Hydro would work great if if you want to use a single bullet style. Getting a Woddleigh FMJ and soft to shoot to the same point of impact is very simple by adjusting the powder charge in 1/2 or even 1gr increments to make them converge.

I'd work up one load wit the soft to hgive you the accuracy Velocity you desire and then load the FMJ 1.5 grs under your SP load and work up to perhaps 1gr over the SP load. Adjust and shoot

D'Arcy's advice is good.
Back in the days before becoming a Born-Again-.458-WINner, I loaded for the 404 Jeffery some.
400-gr Woodleigh Weldcores and FMJ with either RL-15 or Varget,
starting at 72.0 grains of either and stopping when you get desired velocity.
For me it was 2401 fps instrumental velocity at 5 yards.
IIRC, I went as high as 80.0 grains of RL-15 or 81.0 of VARGET (better ThermoBallisticIndependence).

I had a loose-grooved, McGowen, stainless barrel of 1:10" Twist, 24" long.
Tighter barrels will require less powder, i.e., your mileage will vary.

Saeed's VARGET loads for the 404 Jeffery were similar to mine in powder charge and velocity.

Anyway, the loads to make the Woodleigh softs and "solids" of 400-grain weight shoot to same POI were usually within 1.0 grain of each other, with either VARGET or RL-15.

Then there is the slow-powder, full case approach, with H4831/H4831SC, especially if going with the 450-grainers.

But there is nothing wrong with filler loads if using the faster RL-15 or VARGET, and desiring slower velocitites: Dacron fluff or caulk-backer foam plugs.

Rip ...

Thanks, all. I would like a MV of around 2250 - 2300 fps. This depends, of course, on performance. I ran some ballistics data and was encouraged that this rifle and load should work fairly well out to about 200 yards.

When I got my 404 back in 1977-78 it had been brought in from Rhodesia having been a 10.75x68 opened up to 404J and not shot in for the Jeffery cartridge. I had to raise the front sight to bring the POI down with the factory Parker Hale (2245fps) and Kynoch (2225fps) ammo that came with the gun.
Both shot to same POI.

I then started reloading with RWS 401gr FMJ projectiles that I managed to obtain. Using IMR4831 I worked up loads until I hit same POI as factory and left it at that. This was achieved with 85.0grs of the IMR4831 powder and a velocity of 2150fps which killed buffalo nicely.

In deference to the opened up older Oberndorf Type A Mauser I see no benefit in pushing the envelop pressure wise in going for 2300-2500fps with a 400gr bullet that can be obtained from the 404J cartridge.

Back when I started there were hardly any components or reloading information for the 404J, but I got an indication of the IMR4831 load from an Elmer Keith article on loading for the big British DG cartridges. Wrote to Norma to find out if they had reloading components left from the run of 404J ammo they made for Parker Hale, they didn't have anything left for the reloader but supplied the load and specs for the Parker Hale ammo.

Should have noted that the Parker Hale ammo is solids and the Kynoch soft. I used a couple of Kynoch but mostly solids on buffalo.

Eagle27 - -

Good data. Thank you very much!

quote:

Originally posted by Alec Torres:
Eagle27 - -

Good data. Thank you very much!

No problem,

BTW the loading data for the Parker Hale ammo just in case you have or come across any Norma powder, was 87.0 grains of Norma 204 powder with their 400gr Solid for a velocity of 2,245fps and pressure of 34,765psi.

I did most of my hunting with the 404 and 416 Rem..both shot to the same POI with one grain of the same powder. That worked in most big bores as a matter of fact, maybe two grs. on a couple of occasions, not sure..that's been over 50 years of shooting both calibers best I recall without pulling up records, maybe longer....

My all time preference was and is the 450 gr. Woodleighs, a most impressive 4o caliber bullet.
Geoff had me test both the 450 soft and solid in 416, and 404 on buffalo over a two or three year period, both RN and PPs. Sent me a hell of a lot of bullets through Huntingtons...

Ray, what is your loading for the 450gr Woodleigh in the 404 Jeffery?
Recalling your data for your 400gr loading you have been up to 95.0grs IMR4831 but usually drop the charge down to around 92.0grs for a more reasonable load. A 400 grainer crimped in the cannelure bottoms out right at the neck/shoulder junction, some would say perfect positioning, so how much longer is a 450gr bullet?
It must protrude down into the case a little but a drop in powder charge would see everything fit?

Alec, I am a real Cutting Edge Bullet Bullets Fan.
Pleas read article.


Bullets for Buffalo by Brian Gallup

Dangerous game bullets are almost like religion, You gotta’ have faith.



Hunters don’t like to take a chance on a new bullet when they stand face to face with a cape buffalo. It’s just too dangerous. Most buffalo hunters start out with an expert’s advice on a proven bullet and  never change. “If it works don’t fix it”.


When I experiment with a new bullets on a cape buffalo I like to be backed up by a seasoned PH who carries a 458 or bigger and knows how to use it. With that approach I have killed Cape buffalo with a variety of bullets from 300 grain Cup Point Solids to 700 grain Peregrine Bush Masters. 


In years past, I believed that a bullet’s terminal performance was all about the numbers like bullet diameter, weight, velocity, sectional density, energy and Taylor’s Knockdown Formula. But, I came to realized that there was more to putting a big animal in the freezer than arithmetic.


Fortunately, in recent years, there were a few forward thinking hunters, and innovators who figured out how to incorporate the significant factors of tissue damage and penetration into the terminal performance of a bullet and make it work to the fullest on every shot.


It’s a fascinating story. First, these innovators changed the profile of solid, non expanding Dangerous Game (DG) bullets. The main characters in this story in the USA are Michael McCourry of B&M Rifles and Cartridges and Sam Rose from South Carolina. They did most the heavy lifting over a decade of testing prototype bullets on buffalo in Africa and Australia, and on test media in their own facility. Michael said, “I started the project when a hippo tried to bite me”. 


The goal was to find out what profile of monolithic solid bullet would cause the straightest, deepest penetration with a permanent wound channel. They found out early in their testing that the traditional round nosed solid was not the best.


Working closely with three top manufactures, Cutting Edge Bullets , SSK Industries and North Fork Bullets, the result was a superior dangerous game solid. It’s called the BBW #13 Solid.
It features a 13 degree straight ogive and a wide flat meplat (front of the bullet) that is 67% of bullet diameter. This specific configuration penetrated deeper and straighter than many others tested.


North Fork and Cutting Edge Bullets manufacture this bullet. North Fork also makes it in a Cup Point version that leaves an even bigger wound channel but still penetrates straight and deep. (The only DG bullet with comparable terminal performance to the Cup Point, that I know of, is the Peregrine Bush Master, made in South Africa. The NF Cup Point Solid and the Peregrine Bush Master are an excellent blend of solid and expanding bullet characteristics.)


I have gotten four one shot kills and not one problem on mature Cape buffalo with the BBW #13 solid in a 300 grain, .375 HH, a 450 grain, .500-110Winchester and a 650 grain, .577 NE. The terminal performance was always the same, deep, straight penetration through meat and bone. If I line my shot up right, the BBW #13 should go straight through the buffalo’s heart from almost any angle. That’s as good as it gets in a dangerous game solid bullet.


The next chapter in the BBW #13 bullet story is where it gets real interesting. For every BBW #13 Solid, Michael wanted an expanding bullet with a matching point of impact. (POI).


The idea was not to just make a better expanding bullet. Michael and Sam wanted an entirely new level of performance. Their ingenuity and perseverance resulted in an amazing bullet.


Called The Raptor and produced by Cutting Edge Bullets, it is a monolithic bullet designed to change configuration after two inches of penetration. The top portion of the bullet blows off into six blades that move away from the main wound channel in a star pattern creating massive tissue damage. 


I will use Michael’s words to explain how he duplicated the POI for each matching solid bullet.


“ Brian, I wanted to take the solid and make the exact same bullet a Hollow Point. My theory was that the length of bullet and exact bearing surface was just as important to the POI as weight, and in some cases more important. It was theory before testing as this had not been investigated before. In testing, it panned out exactly as planned. With the same loads the Raptor and Solid were in the same hole with every single caliber/cartridge combo.


Doing pressure work, ‘Weight Equals Pressure’, and since the Raptors are lighter, their pressure is lower. This gives the Raptor more velocity. POI for the Raptor is 1/2- 3/4 of an inch higher that the solid at 50 yards. Very acceptable POI for Dangerous Game. The velocity increase is 100-150 fps higher than the same solid.”


For each Raptor bullet there is a pointed polymer tip that the you can snap into the hexagon hollow point to enhance the external ballistics ( bullet flight.) Michael says that the polymer tip will also enable the Raptor to penetrate further before the blades blow off and go into action.


In 2012 Sam and his hunting mates tested the Raptor in Australia and Africa killing over 200 buffalo. The bullet was a complete success and always produced “uncommonly quick kills” with many “bang flops” reported. 


I had the same results on three mature buffalo with the Raptor bullet in Africa this year. I hit all three broadside in the center of the shoulder at about 40 meters with a 410 grain, 500 caliber Raptor fired at a modest 1,940 fps. Each buffalo reacted the same way. They just shuddered for an instant like they had been electrocuted, then took a couple of wobbly steps and went down.
I was hunting with my friend Pieter Kriel of Mkulu Safaris. It took us three hours of tracking and stalking to get close to the first old buffalo we wanted. I was tired and shaky when I finally got a shot at under 40 meters.  Sometimes, when I squeeze off a shot at close range on a buffalo, everything just goes into slow motion for me. In the instant during recoil this buffalo didn’t appear to react. He was motionless. For that moment, I though I’d missed! Usually a buffalo will lurch, turn and run when hit square in the shoulder, but not this one. Time stood still before the beast stumbled and crashed to the ground. I turned and looked at Pieter who seemed a little surprised too. 
“Wow”, I said.  
“Lekker!” He answered.


At the skinning house we found massive internal tissue damage. The main shank of the .50 caliber Raptor went deep into the shoulder, missing the heart by about six inches, but one of the rotating blades severed a large artery close to the heart. The blades also tore up a lot of lung tissue. Pieter and the skinners said they had never seen damage like that from a single round. I was especially impressed considering that I had loaded the 410 grain Raptor to just 1,940 fps. It should be pushed about 200 fps faster but my old break-open, single shot rifle wouldn’t stand that stiff of a load.


I hit each of the next two bulls broadside in the centre of the shoulder with the 410 grain .500 caliber Raptor, and each one staggered and went down as uneventfully as did the first one.


So, I am a believer. The Cutting Edge BBW #13 Raptor is an outstanding DG bullet that definitely punches above its weight class. 




Alec,
Here is the load data for my 404. Both loads using Norma cases and Fed. 215 LRM primers.

400gr. North Fork soft - 82gr. H 4350
Avg. Vel. 2376 fps SD 6 FPS

400 North Fork Cup Point Solid - 82gr. H 4350
Avg. Vel. 2306 fps. SD 11 fps.

Both loads shoot to the same POI at 75 yds.

Alec, your choices are very good. However, Gundog 64 mentioned the North Fork Cup points. I highly recommend that bullet as an excellent buffalo bullet. I used it in a .458WM custom Mauser and had excellent results on a big Zimbabwe bull. This bullet bridges the gap between solid and soft. Research it. www.northforkbullets.com

Good luck.

Alec, The NF Cup point is excellent, as RG says. I have used it for a one shot kill on a cape buffalo at 35 yds. with a 375hh. Some expansion, deep, straight, 6ft. penetration. Brian

Used the North Fork .423 - 380 grain softs on several Cape Buffalo with great results as well as the North Fork 380 grain cone shaped solids on Elephant - same results.

Using Norma Brass, Federal 215 match primers, 76 grains of Varget gave nominal 2400 fps. Varget was far and away the best powder I had a chance to test....started with 72 grains in my rifle and worked up...

I may have some extra cone shaped solids and cup points for sale if anyone has the need to do some testing/hunting.

I should mention that I know that CEB has paired their Solids and Softs (Raptors)in each calliber for the same point of impact. I wouldn't be surprised if NF has done the same.

Brian,
Have not used the Cutting edge, I usually let someone else and time to determine if I want to try a new bullet..I do have a question, based on photographs of the cutting edge HP, the hollow point looks thin and one wonders it it sheds its pettles and does this bullet get nice big exit holes or is it of the school that says a bullet needs to expend all its energy within the animal..I like a exit hole in everything I shoot, but I don't dismiss the other theory as I have seen it work on many occasions, I just guess I like a blood trail, old school on my part and I don't change easy..

Excellent information - just what I was hoping for. I had not heard of the CE bullets and I WILL check them out.

Many thanks to all.

AT

Ray, I have only used them on 3 buffalo. 410 grain, 500 cal at 1920 fps. Nothing made it out the other side.
I am told that some times the core makes it through. The "blades" spiral most the way through the chest cavity causing terrible damage. About 6-10 inch diameter of damage. All 3 buffalo were dead right there. ( 3-5 steps.) See report above.

(Also, I used a 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster .577 NE at about 1950 fps. High mid shoulder shot. The buffalo went down where it stood. Smashed shoulder. Some expansion and excellent penetration. Might be as good or even better than the NF cup point. I only killed one buffalo with that bullet.)

Also my grandson hit an old blesbok nicely broad side in the shoulder at 110 yds, with a 100 grain CEB, 30-30 single shot at about 2500 fps. Same story, nothing came out the other side, lots of damage in the chest cavity. Blesbok took four jumps and went down.

PS, Two holes are good. I agree. I guess the assumption is with Raptors you don't have to track them (famous last words, chuckle.) Also, Raptors don't shoot through brush, but what expanding bullet does reliably.

Alec, The NF Premium bonded core soft point in an excellent "soft". It is actually very tough and will often go through plains game. It is tougher than the Swift A-Frame. I like it for Buffalo, but the CEB Raptor is my first choice for a "soft" on everything.