I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms here, but which rifles would you men consider suicide rifles when used for dangerous game hunting in the "Dark" place?

I'm sure most of us have read the Africa Hunter article regarding some potential bad choices, but I like to here what you guys think.

Let 'em fly!

A 45-70!
I just couldn't resist!

Allen

700....jorge

I, like many, have read Don Heath's articles on the rifle failures that occur during the annual Zim PH proficiency exams.

I generally disagree with or am baffled by at least half of what he says in those articles. For instance, I find his comments on rifle foibles to be overstated - and his comments on safeties, in particular, to be incomprehensible.

I would use ANY rifle characterized as bad in his article, without exception, to hunt and shoot DG - but here is the catch - ONLY AFTER A SUITABLE WORK OVER BY A GOOD GUNSMITH AND A THOROUGH, AND I MEAN, THOROUGH, WORKOUT BY ME. I know that many or perhaps most Zim PH candidates are not able to do this, but for my purposes, that is entirely beside the point.

I would not use, nor would I ever recommend that anyone should use, any off the shelf rifle on DG, unless I or they had no other choice.

To state that factory made rifles have problems these days is not exactly a news flash.

But back to the question. What would I not use? The list is a long one. It is easier to say what I would use. I would generally use just about any bolt rifle factory chambered in a caliber that is more than powerful enough to do the job. I would not use a any rifle chambered in a caliber that is only barely or marginally capable of doing the job.

A stainless steel, pushfeed, Monte Carlo style synthetic stocked, 45/70 with see-through rings and a 8-25X scope.

Fjold -- loaded with Garrett Hammerheads?!

For me, it is a matter of which rifles I could bet my life on, and when we're talking the BIG Dangerous game in Africa, I don't think I could use a 700, a browning, a savage, or most push feeds for that matter (which I know has been debated to much disharmony here on AR).

And, while I have a 45-70 and have been having much fun with it, I don't think I would gamble with it. I really like the big Ruger #1s (aka "tropicals"), but I don't think I would use one there either. What if one just happens to get stuck out there alone, with no PH to back you up? You're probably screwed already at that point (once the dark falls), but a single shot can't help much.

Also, I don't think I'd use an autoloader either, though they don't really make one big enough for dangerous game (save the 50 BMGs). I seem to recall a story in "The Last Ivory Hunter" where Wally described a guide's/farmer's son who was injured while trying to track down a wounded leopard with a FAL (in .308). I might be wrong on this though.

Rem 700 would be very near the bottom of my list. A Savage too. And any kind of single shot or lever action.

What a question!

If I had to define it, that would be any rifle or chambering that had any questions about regarding functioning, reliability and performance.

That would include a "new" rifle (new to me) that I had not put through its paces under different conditions. Some rifles shoot great off the bench when you are under cover and firing slowly.

That for me would also include any rifle that was not of a time tested design on the Dark Continent.

That would go for cartridge selection as well. A 416 Rigby over a 416 remington, a 458 Lott over a 458 Winchester, a 375 H&H over a 375(insert here).

Any rifle that exhibited any issues in workmanship that had not been to a first rate smith for smoothing out. Little problems here or there can be signs of bigger issues.

My way of thinking is that rifle and cartridge selection is really a process of eliminating variables or things that might go wrong. I would rather spend more money on the rifle and wait for a trip to Africa than take a chance on what may be cheaper. Why take a chance on rifles that break extractors? Why take a chance on ammunition that has exhibited problems of one sort or another? Why be the guinea pig for a new chambering? Why take a chance on a model that has exhibited function or reliability issues in Africa?

Why, when your hunt of a lifetime or your shot at that one in a million animal, ultimately can come down to just one shot? Why chance the cost of a safari? And why stake your life and possibly the life of others in your hunting party to equipment with any question mark?

There are many variables we cannot control - weather, wind, brush density, range, heat, game concentrations, etc. So why not get a handle on the ones we can control?

Granted, Don's observations in his article are by no means a scientific or statistically significant sample. But the issues he raises are not new and not uncommon. Everyone is free to listen to them or ignore them. My own view is to pay attention to what he or anyone else that makes a living hunting Africa have to say. They are not paid to hawk one product over another, and to me represent a fairly objective and impartial view.

excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is wrong with the Rem700 or the Savage?
caliber?
reliability?

I am currently putting away money for a rifle, thinking 375 H&H, which Savage offers (729$ msrp)

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Rem 700 would be very near the bottom of my list. A Savage too. And any kind of single shot or lever action.

Dan,

Where would Weatherby rank on your list?

Perhaps SuperSpeed could then offer an opinion.

Any gun not maintained properly, any gun out of the box, single shots and most lever actions.

I would rather have a welltrusted, maintained Rem 700 than a poorly maintained custom from Echols or any other superb gunsmith.

My Remingtons have served me without flaw for 20 years, they would not fail just because I entered Africa.
If one believe it would, one unveils a poor understanding about firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenBosely:
A 45-70!
I just couldn't resist!

Allen

I believe those that I've seen on videos which generally leave the shooter's possession when fired (.577 Tyrannosaur or some such??), would be a lot worse than a .45/70 if followup shots are needed! It's sort of difficult to fire the second shot if you have to go hunting for the rifle after the first shot.........

I believe any cartridge which will kill a Cape Buffalo bull, and after going clean thru him, kills another Cape Buffalo on the other side, is no slouch! There are .45/70 loads which will do this.

"It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading"

Assuming the above is correct one must wonder why the authur continued to fire the 416 Wby in question for shots 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8?

If he is telling the truth then he is either a fool or has great faith in the strength and gas proofing on the Wby.

That Norma made Wby ammo must also have super strong case rims when a 2 pound hammer worked....or perhaps he just failed to mention needing a ram rod to knock the case free.

Mike

A 1917 Enfield converted to .416 Remington with a non-taper bull barrel, no iron sights, a Tasco scope, a thumbhole stock with a varmit beaver-tail forend... it wouldn't feed but one round and then only sometimes... with the safety off, it would discharge at the lightest bump, even though it had a trigger that was two-stage and a 12 lb pull. The gun wouldn't stay on a 8.5x11 piece of business stationery at 50 yards. I swear I saw it in a safari camp... it weighed 16 lbs if it weighted an ounce.

A 425 Westley Richards made on a standard Mauser action by someone else than Westley Richards.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
A 1917 Enfield converted to .416 Remington with a non-taper bull barrel, no iron sights, a Tasco scope, a thumbhole stock with a varmit beaver-tail forend... it wouldn't feed but one round and then only sometimes... with the safety off, it would discharge at the lightest bump, even though it had a trigger that was two-stage and a 12 lb pull. The gun wouldn't stay on a 8.5x11 piece of business stationery at 50 yards. I swear I saw it in a safari camp... it weighed 16 lbs if it weighted an ounce.

Ah yes the infamous Colonel Shithead rifle..

"The Mauser 98 that was invented in 1898 has never been bettered!"

Kevin "Doktarii" Robertson....

quote:

Ah yes the infamous Colonel Shithead rifle..

That's "Lieutenant Colonel Shithead" to you mister! jorge

How about a 28" bbl, stainless, thumb-hole laminate stock, Jim Shockey special?

Been there with the Ruger NO l and the 45-70 Marlin. Came back too. I guess the Savage would be my last choice as I have had both failure to feed and failure to eject. Never in 50 years have I had a problem with a Remington. I had one that I know I ran 10,000 round down three barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by SuperSpeed:
"It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading"

Assuming the above is correct one must wonder why the authur continued to fire the 416 Wby in question for shots 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8?

If he is telling the truth then he is either a fool or has great faith in the strength and gas proofing on the Wby.

That Norma made Wby ammo must also have super strong case rims when a 2 pound hammer worked....or perhaps he just failed to mention needing a ram rod to knock the case free.

Mike

The author wasn't doing the shooting. An Appy PH was. The author only did the beating with the hammer.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by SuperSpeed:
"It showed decidedly sticky extraction after the first three shots and finally died on number eight. It gives me great pleasure than to dig out my 2lb hammer and beat the bolt of a new rifle open whilst giving the owner a lecture on the benefits of reloading"

Assuming the above is correct one must wonder why the authur continued to fire the 416 Wby in question for shots 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8?

Because if the candidate does not complete the proficiency examination then he fails and must wait a year to try again.

quote:

Originally posted by Blair338/378:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Rem 700 would be very near the bottom of my list. A Savage too. And any kind of single shot or lever action.

Dan,

Where would Weatherby rank on your list?

You must promise not to cry.

Maybe Wby need to supply a 2 pound hammer with each rifle sold

I have never seen this hot Wby ammo. I have chronographed on Oehler the 270 Wby, 300 Wby, 378 and 460 with factory and all were 100 f/s under top handloads.

One problem than can and does happen with Wbys (but it should not apply to factory ammo) is that if the firing pin is removed a small ball bearing that indexes the firing pin can fall out which allows the firing pin to screw in and out whe the bolt is reassembled. This can result in poor ignition and allow the handloader to work up to a load that is too hot but the poor ignition means it is not showing up as too hot....and then a load goes off properly and the load is to hot.

When removing the firing pin it is best to hold the bolt shroud and screw the bot off the bin as opposed to rotating the firing pin.

Blair338/378 can attest to the above with a 416 Wby he had where the gunsmith had allowed the ball to drop out.

Mike

"Rifle Lessons learned from the Zimbabwe Professional Hunter Proficiency Exam ....One last, fairly humorous incident occurred which simply confirms my case against Weatherby. An apprentice PH was using a rifle chambered for the .375 H&H. He had a whole pile of ammo given to him by a client, which was .375 H&H made by Weatherby. He also had a few rounds though that were also head stamped “Weatherby†and marked .375 but they were .375 Weatherby rather than Holland & Holland. I’ve never seen a rifle chambered for .375 Weatherby but the rounds sure didn’t fit into chamber of the said fellow’s rifle and caused an almighty jam. It was during a training session at Rifa so we all simply had a good laugh."

Don Heath what a rifle expert dosen't even know what a .375 Wby is.
Just becuse it's in print dosen't make it true!
Take this article with a grain of salt written by a typical anti-american African.

Dr B

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Don Heath what a rifle expert dosen't even know what a .375 Wby is.
Just becuse it's in print dosen't make it true!
Take this article with a grain of salt written by a typical anti-american African.

Dr B

The way I took it was (he had never seen one).
Neither have I but I know they exist.

You Yanks do have some funny idears, and so do the Africans I suppose.

I took the article as being supposed to be humourous, one sided, and yet informative, as to the troubles the candidates can get into.

The gent above somewhere who couldn't understand the safety comments obviously wasn't raised with rifles with the safety on the left side. When you have been, the ones on the right side are obviously on the wrong side.

So, at risk of stealing this thread, what do you guys do to verify that your DG rifle is "ready for Africa". Fast feed and eject the rounds loaded with the bullets of your choice? Cock the rifle, set the safety and bump it on the ground a few times (unloaded of course)? What else? Perhaps some folks will want to see if it reliably feeds upside down?
Peter.

Ah yes, the old upside down trick, brings back the time I was gathering coconuts and a bull elephant attacked, and I, hanging precariously by my knees up side down fed my faithful Rem 700 a round and put an end to his advances! I was wondering when this old cliche would pop up, then there is the underwater test for hippo and croc hunters. Your right Aussie, we Americans and Africans do have some strange ideas.

Peter,
First, find a competent gunsmith, one who knows how to make a rifle feed and extract with 100% reliability. This describes less than half of the smiths in the business. Solicit recommendations from AR members. If you can't find someone in your area, go someplace else.

Next, you must shoot the rifle. At least 100 rounds, minimum.

I have never had a factory rifle perform flawlessly. I have had failures that could have resulted in my death.

Any DG rifle that is poorly balanced or doesn't come up and on target with my eyes closed.

Anyone that knows Don Heath knows that he is definately not anti-american.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
Peter,
First, find a competent gunsmith, one who knows how to make a rifle feed and extract with 100% reliability. This describes less than half of the smiths in the business. Solicit recommendations from AR members. If you can't find someone in your area, go someplace else.

Next, you must shoot the rifle. At least 100 rounds, minimum.

I have never had a factory rifle perform flawlessly. I have had failures that could have resulted in my death.

Apparently you have never owned any Husqvarnas. Of the dozen or so I have owned or sold to customers I do not know of any that malfunctioned in any way.

Only rifle I would never take hunting again after dangerous game in Alaska would be a Remington 700. In subfreezing temperatures where it was raining and or snowing I suffered so many times from the trigger getting clogged with ice and rendeing it useless that I sold every Remington I owned. And that included three from there Custom shop. Since I switched to W70 style actions and Rugers I never had a problem since.

Peter,

My point is that no one should just assume that his DGR - especially any off the shelf DGR - will work when needed.

You need to practice a lot with a DGR before you take it into the field, and by that I mean practice often and hard.

Don't baby it. Bang it and beat it and shake it like you need salt from it and then see if it still works as it should. Slow fire and rapid fire. While working the safety on and off. With the loads you intend to use while hunting. Preferably and at least in the dozens or better even a couple hundred or more.

Mechanical devices will fail, even after they have been exhaustively tested. But that is not to say that they should not be tested, and rigorously, in the first place.

BTW, Don Heath is doing a service by pointing out common flaws, or at least flaws that may be encountered from time to time, in the various DGR designs and I did not mean to imply otherwise.

My "custom" 404 Jeffery that jams 100 percent of the time when the bolt is operated at "OH SHIT" speed (even after spending a year with Dennis Olson).

When used as a single shot, however, it works GREAT!

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
So, at risk of stealing this thread, what do you guys do to verify that your DG rifle is "ready for Africa".
Peter.

A couple of times a year a few of us (let's say three of us) have a rapid fire contest with big bore rifles, target at 25 meters, using our standard bowling pin timer. Most people have never tried emptying their magazine as if their life depended on it: ie shooting accurately as fast as you can. You should try it. I learned quite a bit the first time I did it and ended up changing a couple of things on at least one rifle (stiffer magazine spring in the Model 70 eliminated the misfeeds) and also changed the iron sights.

You almost never see anyone practicing firing quickly at the range, people seem to think it is impolite. I have even been to ranges where "rapidfire" was not allowed.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
So, at risk of stealing this thread, what do you guys do to verify that your DG rifle is "ready for Africa".
Peter.

A couple of times a year a few of us (let's say three of us) have a rapid fire contest with big bore rifles, target at 25 meters, using our standard bowling pin timer. Most people have never tried emptying their magazine as if their life depended on it: ie shooting accurately as fast as you can. You should try it. I learned quite a bit the first time I did it and ended up changing a couple of things on at least one rifle (stiffer magazine spring in the Model 70 eliminated the misfeeds) and also changed the iron sights.