What is so special about Krupp steel? Is it better than other ordnance steels?

Nothing special about Krupp steel, it was the best in its day and is exceptable today but probably not as good as many of our modern day steels.

When one speaks of Krupp steel in older shotguns and rifles that usually means it is a smokeless gun and worth more money, they are not promoting the steel the are differentiating between black powder and smokeless.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Where was Krupp steel made? Is it from Sheffield England? Why did the older black powder guns not use Krupp steel? Was it because the black powder did not generate enough pressure to justify the use of the assumingly expensive Krupp steel?

I believe it was actually a brand of steel manufactured by Krupp Metalwerks (kind of like Bethlehem Steel... I've never found a type designation for Krupp steel (ie 4140) In any case I think Ray is correct as well.

Krupp Steel was -and still is! - , as already mentioned, produced at the Krupp-Werke in Essen, in western Germany.

Merkel and Sauer still use the "Krupp Dreiring Gewehrlaufstahl" for most of there guns.

Fritz

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...the mark of the hunter is the ability to get close.

/

I'll side with Alf on this Krupp stahl issue.

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Andr�

So anyone know the material specification for the old Krupp ordnance steel. Was a manganese steel like we used here in the US?

The use of 4140 is a relatively new think. SAE 4140 by the way, is a US designation. The DIN designations are somewhat different that our SAE. SAE 4140 is a medium carbon chrome moly steel. These steels typically were not used in the old days for many reasons. The least of which was the difficulty to achieve proper hardness and temper. These steels harden relatively easily and will aslo work harden relatively easily. Making machining and heat treating difficult with yesteryears manufacturing processes.

ThyseenKrupp represents essentially a merger of Germany's largest steel producers. Today only the US has many individual steel companies. In the rest of the world the steel companies have either merged or formed strategic alliances and essentially act as one huge entity. This is the reason (along with state subsidies in many of the foreign countries) that so many US steel companies are failing. They simply are not big enough to compete. It is kinda like the old days when the communist states had profession atheletes competing in the Olmpics and we had true amateurs. That is not to say our steel industry is inferior (We make some of the finest steel in the world) just outgunned.

Todd E

Thanks for the history, Alf.

I have high regard for Krupp steel, as does, it would seem, most of the rest of the world.

This is from Alexander Gray, in _The Hammerless Double Rifle_, page 43:

"Manufacturers of best-quality double rifles maintain strict control over the forging of barrel blanks. For the most part, tubes which are to be used in the construction of game guns, contain 3 percent nickel, which makes them extremely resistant to wear. In the period from 1920 to 1940, many manufacturers used tungsten steel in the forming of rifle barrels. Due to the advent of World War II, tungsten became a scarce item. Barrel manufacturers (such as Vicars and Krupp) set about developing a rifle barrel steel that would surpass the the qualities of tungsten. The composition was made up of manganese, chrome and molybdenum, in combination with iron and various levels of carbon. The development of this steel was necessary at this point due to the very high temperatures generated by cordite powder in conjunction with the characteristics of cartridge primers. This new steel, being extremely difficult to machine, required special tooling in order to carry out the various forming operations. One significant aspect of barrels made from chrome-molybdenum was the overall reduction in weight of the rifle, as much as two pounds in some instances."

This would tend to indicate that double rifles made after the 1940's might be made of stouter stuff and lighter to boot. This is not particular reference to Krupp, but I have never heard anything but good with the mention of Krupp steel throughout history, whether for battleships or rifles.

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RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 04-14-2002).]

Well said Alf, you got my vote!

quote:

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Originally posted by ALF:
Whoa there big fella!

Krupps steel was good in it's day? And to imply of lesser quality to modern steel? Not so.

WAS and IS still of the most famous in ordinance steel manufacturers in the world and today more than ever top makers use the famous krupps "Three circle" steel barrels including Sauer rifles.

Krupp was named after Peter Frederick Krupp (1787-1826).

The company was founded in 1810 with a first foundry in 1811.

Their first barrels were made in 1843.
They were most famous for artillery pieces.
A 3 pounder in 1847 followed by a 12 pounder in 1854.

In 1886 they built the largest gun in the world for coastal defence.

Their steel making skill was the envy of the world and they also made armoured steels and gunsteel for the military during the two world wars.

As per the Mauser history the export or model A mausers ( the ones used in the british guntrade) were mostly fitted with Krupp barrels. There is also indication that barrels from Bohler and Poldi,(czech)
( barrel steel makers to BRNO) could be special ordered.

Of the worlds top gunmakers, machine guns artillery pieces, naval guns and armament systems still wear the "three circles" mark on their barrels.

Today Krupp is known as ThyssenKrupp and is a company with annual sales of 38bn Euro.

They have 27 indiwidual steel companies listed making precision steels for just about any application in modern living.

They have merged with Kawasaki steel in Japan in a trade agreement.

The company also holds 9 automotive,6 elevator,29 technologies, 13 service, 1 real estate and 14 materials companies.

Todd E:

Why was it good originally? It was malleable and could be "worked" without failing. That was most important in a time when barrels were casted and were brittle. They also had superior pressure bearing capability to anything else out there.

Krupp had huge hammer forge presses built that imparted the qualities to their barrels.

[This message has been edited by ALF (edited 04-13-2002).]

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Reread my post...The Krupp steel of yesterday is not as good as modern steel of today, or as good as todays Krupp steel, either I mislead you or you misunderstood..at any rate thats what I ment and I will stand by that statement. Steel like many things has improved with technology.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I assist many posters there, in that a lot has been learnt about steel in modern times.

But back in the old days, "Krupp" on a barrel or piece of steel meant that Kruppwerke are proud of that steel, and it was kinda "guaranteed" by them.

Also earlier some scarce minerals and additives to steel were not analyzed, perhaps not even discovered to be significant. But the steel copanies stick to a recipe, and if they knew the ore from certain sources to be superior, they made sure some of these ores were used in their best steels.

Which means forget modern numbers. Some of these steels were "nearly" stainless or , better, of other superior quality. Whereas modern steels are "refined" down to the written specification as down ( cheap! ) as posssible. I mean in elder steels you got quality upping additions for free, as officially their worth was not yet written down.

Hermann

P.S.: steel aging is a fact. It happens to the best of them ...

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KRUPP STEEL (KRUPSTAHL): In 1811, the world famous KRUPP firm was founded in the Prussian (now German) city of Essen, by Friedrich Krupp. The company achieved its initial success as a producer of crucible steel and rapidly grew to world prominence as a steel maker. Krupp was quick to adopt new steelmaking advances and technologies. They were early producers of Bessemer steel and of all the later improved steels offered by the international steel industry. Steel identified as of Krupp manufacture might be crucible, Bessemer or Open Hearth steel, depending on when it was produced. As manufacturers of heavy ordnance and artillery, Krupp figured prominently in the military adventures of the German armies. TheFranco-Prussian War and World Wars I&II focused the attention of the world on the effectiveness of the "Arms of Krupp". European sporting arms will often display the stamping KRUPP STEEL or KRUPSTAHL on the barrel(s). The Krupp company logo has long been a triangular arrangement of three entwined rings. Though this logo is often mistakenly thought to represent cannon muzzles, it is in fact, a representation of the steel tires for the early cast iron railroad wheels. These tires were a major item in the Krupp product line of the nineteenth century.

Art Gogan, Fighting Iron
A Metals Handbook for Arms Collectors

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."