What is a detached retina? I know that the condition is something to do with heavy recoiling rifles, but what is it? is it painful? is 100% recovery possible?
BB

Yes I think that it can be caused by heavy recoil. I recall that John Wooters got this and had to quit.

I think a older person is more susceptable also.

I am concerned.

I think I have two or three right now after Longbob's Lott demo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ScottB:
I thought that it was something you got on a beach in Mexico. 470 Mbogo

[This message has been edited by 470 Mbogo (edited 12-16-2001).]

I can't give you a medical explanation. But I believe,just as the name implies, it means your retina is detached (usually only partially)from the back of the eye. Obviously not a good thing. Happens quite a bit to boxers from punches and basketball players from elbows to the head. I've seen it happen as a result from car wrecks too. I believe it's fixable to a degree but once done is always vulnerable.

I'm sure it's possible that getting whacked in the eye by a scope could have the same effect, or perhaps the jar of heavy recoil could do it.

A good friend of mine has a partial detached retina. Said it was from shooting too many 3"mags while duck hunting. That said he hunts with a 270Win for all his big game(deer& elk). He still duck hunts but uses a autoloader(gas operated). sure-shot

Ah, yes, the retinal detachment, a perennial topic of the big bore forum.

To get one you have to have a tear in the retina that gives access of fluid from the vitreous to the potential space between the retina and the pigment epithelium/choroid at the back of the eye. The fluid enters and separates the layers and may extend the tear to the point where a part of or the entire retina comes tumbling down as if a curtain rod fell off the wall and the curtain fell.

That little tear can result in a detachment of the retina within minutes or twenty years later. That is the tricky side of it. The other eye should be checked for these small tears or lacerations of the retina and sealed or tacked down with a laser (or other surgical techniques that are beyond my ability to explain) so as to prevent another detachment in the future.

There are degenerative changes with age that can predispose to these retinal detachments, and even the young eye that is very myopic (nearsighted) is more prone. Of course severe trauma plays a part, but it may have been something that happened long before the detachment occurs, or just before. Cataract surgery with lens replacement can result in subsequent detachments, but again it may be due to a pre-existing missed lesion.

It is no wonder that the vitreoretinal surgeons are tough to pin down on the association of head snapping recoil with retinal detachments. I do not know of any scientific studies in a prospective or retrospective view of cases.

Fighter pilots pull positive and negative G's until they black out or red out, and all kinds of trauma is survived with intact retinas sometimes. It would be tough to spot those tiny little tears that could lead to problems later.

90% of retinal detachments can be repaired with one surgical procedure, and another 6% with a second procedure. About 4% don't get as good results. If the repair stays put for 6 months, it is unlikely to cause further problems if the eyes are not further traumatized.

Signs of problems: a shower of floaters, "soot" like particles in great numbers floating across the visual field, and or flashes of light, then dimming of vision as if a curtain is falling. Or just sudden loss of vision, usually painless if not associated with recent trauma. Ophthalmoscopy of even the non-dilated eye can be impressive sometimes, with visible tears and folding up or wrinkling of the retina easily seen.

First aid: keep both eyes closed to avoid unnecessary eye movements. The area of the detachment should be in the dependent position. For example if the retinal detachment is in the lower (inferior), medial (nasal) side of the right eye, then the patient should be transported sitting up with his head turned to the left. Or, if the area of detachment is in the upper (superior), outer (temporal) side of the left eye, he should be lying down (supine) with head turned to the left, etc.

The victim should be hospitalized as soon as possible and readied for surgery.

We used to have a vitreoretinal surgeon post here occasionally, maybe he will surf on in sometime. BTW, he was planning a 585 Nyati for himself, and he is the one who fixes those retinal detachments.

For me, too, life is too short and the joys of the big bores are too great to worry much about it until it happens. Then I would go easy in the big stick department after I got my eye fixed, with good results hopefully.

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 12-16-2001).]

I recently asked my eye doctor, (yes, he is a real MD ophthalmologist and not an optometrist) and when I asked him point blank about recoil and retinal detachment-he is also a shooter-he said that he has never seen any definitive study that showed any link between shooting and detached retina other than anecdotal. It would be interesting to see real science take a look at this and see if there is any higher incidence of detached retina in shooters than there is in the general population. If one were to have a detached retina, then I believe shooting heavy recoiling rifles could aggravate the condition, but actually cause it, I highly doubt it unless one likes to get hit repeatedly with the scope.

Hi again DaggaRon...looks like I'm practicing now in a city named for my favorite animal...

You pretty much hit it all on the head. No ophthalmologist will, for reasons you're aware, tell a guy he'll be OK with a heavy recoiling rifle. If a guy's had a tear or detachment the quality of repair as well as surgical intervention can have a bearing on long term stability. Any of the guys on this forum with the symptoms you described should get a good dilated retinal exam before blasting away further. As stated, no studies are available to guide you further, and you may or may not have trouble. There are risk factors which may increase your odds of detaching, but there are 90 yr olds with myopia who have never even had a tear...conversely Ive had 18 yr olds in the OR with bad detachments.

Me, Id get my eyes checked by a good retina specialist and load up and shoot.

Now that Im in New York Ill have to visit Mitch, if anyone were to tear his retina it'd be him.

BRVP,
Well doggies! Is that you Mark! Moved from MO to Buffalo?
Never fear for Mitch. He is made of sterner stuff than most mortals.
Thanks for taking heed and dropping by.
Now we have a vitreoretinal surgeon if there are any further questions.
Big Bore summed it up pretty well too.
If you ever get down to the Mitch Carter School of the Big Bore, I am sure he will be happy to reveal some tips on benchrest technique with the T.rex and Nyati. I am a graduate of his training.

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

RAB,

I don't how this fits in medically and particulary with respect to eyes but:

I have owned 2 460s and 2 378s as to the big end of town and also 3 458s. The 460s only had the Pendleton Deckickers.

In my years of shooting across the becnh and across the car in the field I have always had a fairly loose hold on the rifle.

Now the price that has been paid is my neck and back. I maybe a candiate for a neurosurgeon

However, I believe that has come from the 375 not the biggies. The reason being is that I was able to shoot a 375 non stop but the biggies just limited how much shooting I could do.

Obvioulsy there are thresholds, but perhaps for someone who has not yet worn themselves out, the biggies might be the best for healt rather than the in betweens.

Mike

I have floaters in my right eye and I am retiring the .375. In fact even a 06 kicks quite hard.

I asked my optomologist who is treating me and he knows nothing about firearms.

I sold a 505 8.5 lbs to a Doctor in Florida and he shot it one time and it detached his retina...I offered to refund him his money but he refused as it was not my fault and I appreciated that..I think he sold the gun..

I told him it was a beast and that I could not shoot it..He said he could handle any recoil and for the most part that was true but the old "beast" one that one. I have seen that beatifull gun for sale in the gun list one more than several ocassions, its made the rounds..

I believe the gun was built by Gary Gowdy if my memory is correct and it was an absolute beauty...One of the nicest and best handling English type rifles I have handled. I wish now that I had just kept it and re-barreled it to a 404...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Don't you think that the detached retina comes from the cheek piece hitting your face?

The "Weatherby" style cheekpiece has to be much better for that. I am no fan of Weatherby's but Roys cheekpiece shape was (is) ahead of it's time.

I shoot Ruger #1's a lot and they hit the face hard.

Don Martin 29,
Every body gets some vitreous floaters as they get older. There are just little specks of inspissated/dried up/congealed vitreous jelly in the otherwise normal eyeball. Just a little dust like in the air of a room. The only thing alarming about them is if they come suddenly in great showers. Then it is something else, and may herald a retinal detachment. I got a few too, but I don't worry about it and can see 20/10 with my super-duper titanium and plastic hunting spectacles.

Mike,
Come see me and I will put you on some dope that will have you shooting pain free. This is a joke if the DEA is listening.

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

Don Martin29,

I will be about the only bloke on the board who will agree with you on the Wby stock.

Mike

RAB,

I have both Neurosurgeons and Orthopods as insurance clients.

Now, while the Neuros reckon the Orthopods are fucked once it gets to back and vice versa they both agree that my neck and back are fucked

Thus, I have been able to get agreement between specialities

Perhaps I have a future as a union man.

Mike

Don,
You are correct Wooters got it in his right eye. It was reattached but the focus isn't sharp enough to shoot with. John now shoots left handed and uses a single shot or lever action most of the time.

Gee I have had those floating things in large quantities, both eyes since as young as I can remember.
Am I in trouble?

Karl.

I think I over reacted to the floaters. I am not retiring the .375's.

I have no pain from my eye. 20-10 vision is really tops. I can easily test to 20-13 and maybe you have the chart down to memory?

You come up here instead and bring a new Corvette from Bowling Green instead!

Ron

Yeah,it's me...Missouri,Illinois and Kentucky folk are some of the best Ive worked with, but for many reasons im back in the northeast..and now much closer to Mitch.Im going to have a try at the T Rex soon. Hope all's well in Ky.

Mark

Karl,
I wonder if you are nearsighted/myopic? Some times just having the longer central axis of the myope eyeball makes floaters more likely, for what reason I am not sure. If not myopic then I don't know. Trauma? You are a boxer, right? Have you had a good dilated exam of your eye by an ophthalmologist? Some times a tiny bleed from a small peripheral tear can cause some remnants that show up as floaters.

Since you are a 585 Gehringer Express shooter, better make sure your retinas have been checked out by an ophthalmologist before proceeding. Doctors always try to cover their asses, and "share the wealth" with the specialists.

Don,
Wouldn't you rather have a nice H&H double rifle instead of one of those Corvettes made in Bowling Green, Kentucky?

Mark,
You made an impression on me as I was able to recall your name. I have decided that the 585 Nyati is bigger than I care to "deal with."

I think I am maxed out with the .510 bores, as far as fun guns go. As Dirty Harry said: "A man has got to know his limitations."

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

[This message has been edited by DaggaRon (edited 12-19-2001).]

Karl,
Just another thought: One of the worst retinal detachments I ever saw was in a young black man in his 30's. He had been a pretty serious boxer, but had developed a cataract prematurely in one eye. He got the cataract fixed and soon after this his retina detached and crumpled up, in the eye he had just had surgery on ... It was not pretty!

I don't know how cause and effect played out here. Probably no one does.

Hopefully the floaters you have noted since your youth are the same kind I have, and we are both O.K.

I think shooting the big bores is easier on the eyes than boxing, where a thumb in the eye happens occasionally.

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

Daggaron,

I might be better off with the Holland and Holland. For sure I would be a lot safer.

I visited H & H in London and looked at a big bore double there. I can't recall if it was .600 or .700. I may have a video of that. I think it was the .700.

Daggaron,
All your good stuff on retinal detachments sent me to Albert& Jakobiec and the chapter on historical perspective by Schepens and Chedid. I was surprised at some of the early insights by 19th century investigatiors. I was surprised that Gonin had not been improved on in his succinct causative statement.
One of the most interesting mornings I ever spent was listening to Sam Vanesi talk about SF6 and silicone oil,et.al.
My own personal ophtho guru thinks repeated trauma is more important than any one whack.
My Bwana Companion suffered his after an afternoon with a 460 Weatherby. I think he owns the 505 Gibbs Ray talked about but still shoots it. After repeated attempts to sell it he just couldn't part with it. He got back to a corrected 20/40 after cataract surgery resulting from the retinal surgery. He loves the 458 Lott like a mistress.
I'm always suspicious of anyone who knows how to spell ophthalmology.Must be a lurker.

Dr. Duc,
I hope your buddy uses muzzle brakes now. Let everyone else use ear plugs!

How old was your buddy when he had the retinal detachment followed by a cataract?

Has he dislocated his intraocular lens implant yet?

As we get older, maybe we should all do like Ray and stick to the 450/400 and 404.

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So many bovids! So little time and money!
RAB

I have floaters and see like lights or whatever at times. Been to the Dr.s, a surgeon a few years ago, and he said it's all good. Kinda like the precusors to migraines without getting the migraines he said. Also, the medication I have to take I think does this. but floaters suck, and I think everyone has them. I also am pretty darned nearsighted, but corrected 20/20 with contacts.
In all honesty, I wouldn't be afraid to shoot big bores over and over. I think the only thing that would bother me is my shoulder.

DaggaRon,
All this retinal detachment talk is catching. My girlfriend started seeing floaters yesterday and flashing light last night. She has a bg toxo scar just off her macula that she has had for 35 years. I looked at it last night and there are holes around the ventral border that are down to the choroid. She is seeing a big "spider" today. Oh well, Wednesday is coming.

RAB,
Yes shortsighted. Something to do with the muscles in my eye. 'Psycho-something or other'?
(heck maybe that was the psychiatrist I saw? ) High eye pressures too.

I was only amatuer and a heavyweight so actually didn' get hit much. Simply because fights are hard to get here at that weight, or you are fighting small guys.

Last army check with the optho got a thumbs up, but I did not mention the floaters or my hobby so will go back again I think.

Thanks again mate.

Karl.

[This message has been edited by Karl (edited 12-24-2001).]

Karl,

I think big blokes like yourself are safer because you will experince less whiplash.

Having said that, the longer I am involved with guns the more convinced I become that the 375 is at the upper end.

In fact I believe one of the reasons for the 404's wide use in Africa in those earlier days (when there was a lot of shooting) is that the recoil of the original loads would have been in the general area of the 375.

If shoot a big one a lot I think the bag of lead shot behind the gun is very worthwhile.Wish I had used one years ago.

Mike

Mike,
Would you say your 375 shooting did the most damage to you?

Migt be the bigbore guys getting these injuries are doing most of their shooting all year wit 340 wby's etc.
Cumulative damage-wonder if it applies to retinas as well as necks backs etc.

karl.

My dad had a detached retina repair about
nine months ago. (Not from shooting)
Because they didn't catch it right away,
the repair was more difficult. Because of
the delay, he had to stay face-down,
I believe, for about three weeks after the repair. Tough on a 74 year old man. Good
news is that his vision is fine now.

Is not this neck/neuro/eye problem the reason the international shooters dropped the standard 12ga. load from 1-1/8 oz down to 24 g.? Some of these folks literally shoot 100k-200k rounds a year (I wonder who buys their shells and if the IOC tracks their IQ's to tell them when it is time to quit).
C.G.B.